Share experiences! Cross-discipline sparring

[CalebChow]

I realize that such training isn't necessarily in the intent of reviving RMA and that the longsword was designed for a certain context, but I'd imagine there'd be many lessons learned from sparring against various disciplines.

But...just out of curiosity, what various arts/styles has everyone on this forum sparred with when using longsword?

Using a single weapon against multiple varieties (especially exotic ones) has always been a huge interest of mine, and I'm wondering what everyone here has had experience with when using longsword.

Oo oo, it'd be really fun if you all could also describe the experiences!

[Benjamin Smith]

I've sparred with fencers and kendoka. The fencers in question were hardly prepared in any sense of the word. Because of the rules they train with right of way, defined and judged parries, and linear movement they were never a challenge. I once sparred for two and a half hours with one and she only touched, which is different I might add than strike with force and intent, touched me four times one grazing my right pinky, once on the outside of my left hip, and twice on the outside of my right. I think only one of those would have been a good incapacitating thrust, the other three were just not placed in such a way as to really ensure that I'd be out of commission.

The kendoka I sparred with were of my experience level at the time, about one year. He hit me twice I think, and had good oberhau and counters to oberhau, but couldn't deal with strikes in any other way or any other direction. I actually put him on the ground with a front kick in one of our bouts. He was very friendly and good natured.

I've also done some wrestling and dagger work with Tae-kwon-do practicioners and wrestlers. They had a lot of trouble dealing with weapons, but were usually a match for me unarmed. I need to work more on those skills.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I realize that such training isn't necessarily in the intent of reviving RMA and that the longsword was designed for a certain context, but I'd imagine there'd be many lessons learned from sparring against various disciplines.

But...just out of curiosity, what various arts/styles has everyone on this forum sparred with when using longsword?

Using a single weapon against multiple varieties (especially exotic ones) has always been a huge interest of mine, and I'm wondering what everyone here has had experience with when using longsword.

Oo oo, it'd be really fun if you all could also describe the experiences!

I have had 2 good sparring sessions with kali/escrima type stylists. The longsword tends to perform better than the sticks. Just stay at long range and use your reach. Not so much the knives, but that could also speak to my limited skill with knives as well. One thing I like about escrima folks is they are more than happy to spar with a pretty loose rule structure.

[Martin Lysen]

My experience with Kendokas and sport fencers closely mirror Mr Smith's. They were not able to deal with attacks against non scoring areas according to their rules. They left their legs open all the time and had problems with circling footwork. Against fencers, unarmed strikes and ringen were easy to do once you got past the point of their weapon. Kicks to the knees are a favorite of mine. On the other hand, I haven't met a lot of WMA practioners that are very used to that attack either. (Short, fast, low stamping kicks are a left over from my days in the Bujinkan, so that could be considered cross sparring as well, I suppose.)

[Stewart Sackett]

I've done dagger sparring with two kali people, in both cases the kali practitioners had cross trained in grappling arts (Judo for one, BJJ & wrestling for the other).

They would slice me repeatedly & then I'd stab them. We would then discuss how weather effects clothing which in turn effects knife strategies: how a tropical climate made light weight clothing preferable & lead to a form of slicing knife work that wouldn't function well against a heavily clothed opponent.

[CalebChow]

Interesting.

In the case of sparring with the kendoka, is the overall speed any higher due to their style/weapon?

If I recall, shinais are significantly lighter (and maybe a bit longer?) than longswords.

[Benjamin Smith]

Yes it is true. Both Fencers and Kendoka use very light "weapons" (as they call them) that make them artificially fast, but tactical preparation and versatility have beaten raw speed 94-5% of the time in my experience. I'd hate to see what I'd have done to them if they'd been using something that more accurately reflected a real weapon.

One other thing. Intent is everything. Striking with controlled force, speed, and ferocity is just plain effective, and often intimidating to people who haven't encountered it, especially if you can add grappling, closes, pommel and hilt strikes to the mix effectively. People who don't train with intent really suffer cross-training, that goes for every one I've ever cross-trained with. The only people who have been a challenge for me are those who have trained with serious intent and non-compliance in their art. Which is saying something considering I'm not really that great, certainly nowhere near the level of our senior practicioners.

[Martin Lysen]

And here I would have to say that the Kendokas I sparred with displayed a lot more fighting spirit than the fencers. They were not afraid to strike hard or to be struck hard in return, they were just limited in their repertoire and tactics. I do not know if this is common in all Kendo dojos, but the ones I have had contact with played pretty hard ball, with knock downs and heavy bruising being the norm during sparring. The fencers, seldom being struck hard in their regular training, had a lot more trouble adjusting to actually fighting instead of playing tag...

The shinai I have encountered were shorter than a longsword.

[Jason Taylor]

I've trained with quite a few members of outside arts, mostly Escrima, as well as a few non-arts practitioners (LARPers, et al). I'd agree that training with intent and training with the objective of a real fighting art are the key distinctions, regardless of style. I brought in a good friend who has earned two black belts in Asian systems and is a pretty experienced dabbler in other arts. He trains hard, spars full contact, etc. but mostly without weapons (occasional stick work aside). Though he lacked experience with weapon work of the sort we do, he did quite well with only a few pointers, and held his own against people with 1-2 years experience. Of course, he has well over a decade of what I'd consider the "good" Asian stuff.

We had a Wing Chun practitioner drop by the other day, but he didn't really want to work with swords much--he said he wanted to know more technique first. He wanted to spar with some padded staffs he brought (the incredibly flimsy commercial kind) and one of our guys went with him a while, but none of us really work on staff regularly. It was pretty even; he had a bit of trouble with our charging to close techniques, but it wasn't really a good test anyway with the staffs he had. No one tried to go sword on staff with him, which probably would have been a significantly different result.

Of course, the LARPer experience pretty much goes without saying: I've generally owned all the LARPers I've encountered, even with my limited experience, so long as we use my (realistically weighted) weapons. Oddly, though, they've generally had pretty good attitudes about it, unlike a lot of the LARP stories I've heard. Guess I've just had good luck.

Kali/Escrima can be hard to judge from outside. I competed in a knife tournament a while back, and found that the escrima guys were lightning fast but often delivered light cuts. Kali always seems a bit more direct, smashing guys in the head with sticks, for example--something more likely to incapacitate immediately. Some of the escrima out there has become a short-blade version of Tae Kwon Do toe-sparring.

Jason

[s_taillebois]

Speaking from a bit of a limited exposure, from sparring with the kendo people the reach of a longsword waster is a fair advantage. And in general they seem to be a bit vulnerable to winding, and a tear down with the quillions left them with no real response.

But the kendo people I sparred with, seemed to be at their best when they could close the distance, and try for various oblique cuts. Middle wards like plow only seem to work if one can catch the kendo's blade (Bokken waster whatever you want to call it) into a winding or tear down. The true or bastard pendant ward seemed to not work all that well with the kendo contingent.

Didn't seem to be all that much difference in speed, although the kendo people seemed to have a limited set of responses.

Of course most of you are in larger cities so would have more chances to test various styles than those such as myself who live in more rural areas (where most martial arts are simply not part of the local culture...and kendo and WMA especially so...)

It would be interesting to find how well WMA works against the Korean styles...

[Chris Ouellet]

It would be interesting to find how well WMA works against the Korean styles...

On that note is anyone in the vicinity of Hamilton Ontario? I train haidong gumdo and spar every week. I have a good number of senior students all of them quite capable. We're always looking for new sparring partners and are very open minded about other styles. We use shinai and kendo armor for sparring.
I'll be moving to Long Island sometime in the new year.
I'm going to be going to the summer ARMA gathering (pending acceptance of course). However I'm distinctly going there to *learn* WMA rather than use gumdo, but I'm sure we can arrange some free time afterwards.

[CalebChow]

In regards to those that have fought fencers:

What weapons did they use for the spar? I'd imagine that a foil/epee/sabre in sport fencing would likely snap from contact with a longsword.

If I wanted to test my skills against other sport fencers, what would I recommend them use?

[Jason Taylor]

In regards to those that have fought fencers:

What weapons did they use for the spar? I'd imagine that a foil/epee/sabre in sport fencing would likely snap from contact with a longsword.

If I wanted to test my skills against other sport fencers, what would I recommend them use?

This is a question I've wondered about. I suppose the best option would be some kind of smallsword simulator. It would have to be pretty stiff, so you might need to armor the torso a bit to avoid them cracking your rib with a floor lunge (depending on how much you trust them). Blade length on a smallsword is something like 31-33 inches, with maybe eight inches for the handle. I'd think maybe some kind of fiberglass or polypropylene rod design.

Make sure you take full advantage of your weapon, too. I like the longer end of the longsword range for this kind of thing; sport fencers always want to tell me that their speed will totally outclass my abilities with such a clumsy weapon as the longsword. Something like, "yeah, my weapon is shorter, but all I have to do is get past your point, and then I'll...." Easier said than done, unless you plan on a kamikaze thrust. Plus, I like to think I have a few more options at close range than they think. Anyway, I always figure, why make it easier for them, so I go with the longer end of things.

Jason

[Chris Ouellet]

Sport fencing weapons are surprisingly quite resiliant to blows from shinai in my experience. Fencers rarely if ever have a rock hard wrist unless they're novices, more often then not they will bend their wrist if a heavy blow lands on the weapon and simply snap their wrist back into place in a flash, voiding most attempts to displace their guard by force.
You shouldn't go into a sparring match with intent to test the physical quality of the sport fencer's weapon. It's more dangerous for you then it is for them because if their weapon breaks it's pointed at you. In battle of course no one would choose a toothpick, this type of exercise is merely for fun.

Please take heed of the following suggestion for sparring against olympic style fencers: swap protective gear. You should be the one in whites and they should have heavier protection for your heavier simulator. They will try to hit you *anywhere*, regardless of gaps in your armour, and they can get very jittery after feeling a hard blow, trust me on this one.

As an aside I'm quite happy with this thread, I've already found a dedicated WMA sparring partner in Long Island.

[Cooper Braun]

Something to be aware of with sport fencing swords, is that because they are metal they can eat the side of a waster, I have some pretty nice gouges in one of my wasters from from the side of a foil.

As to my experiences. I find Kendo fighters great., They have great spirit and martial intent, though they are hampered by a rules set. I beat them every time by stabbing at the guts, as they don't have a defense against it. Most of those I have fought with have been great people, and took it as a learning experience. Fencers are hit or miss, some (like I was) fence because its the only place were you could pick up a sword, so they are happy to actually be fighting for real. Epee fighters have the best luck because they already consider the whole body a target. Mostly though they get confused by circular footwork. LARPers I again consider hit or miss, some want to play tag and be elves, some just want to hit things. A lot of people I know that LARP again do it because they don't know the WMA exists and its a way for them to swing swords around. Those ones again usually need some pointers but most generally like learning real fighting.
So in short I think its a lot about who you play with. I have friends who I spar with that have no weapons training but do great because they know how to fight.