Is HEMA training applicable to the 21st Century?

[Jared L. Cass]

Sorry Stuart McD.! My brain totally glossed over this sentance of your's...Just remember chaps that although the ARMA only looks at the Medieval Period through the early Renaissance it doesn't mean that HEMA doesn't cover other time periods. My bad <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> . I need to read things more closely. Disreguard those few parts of my last reply to you that failed to take that sentance and your experience into consideration. Sorry once again.

What is the time period that you guys use manuals from? I use primarly Fiore for his "standing grappling", and the many german sources for more of the easly recognizable "regular" wrestling. Along with the major influence of my taijutsu training (vertually identical to a combination of the previously mentioned sources).

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jared L. Cass]

Hi Stewart F. I agree with all you say, but I would add that if we truely are training to not only recreate historical methods and find modern applications for them, that we should do more than note briefly how they are applicable today.

IMO we need to activly and frequenlty work on/in modern environments/applications. To really find a practical use for (as an example) messer techniques, we should be experimenting with flash-lights, ice-scrapers, ect. We should be trying these things out in our homes, in parking-lots, and even in our cars. While the technique is the same now as in the past, the environment we typically live/function in is different. As are the tools. Make sense? To look at it from a slightly different angle: we can and may be very good at doing...say an armbar... in practice and on flat open ground, but can we do the same armbar while sitting down in our car? The technique is essencially the same (as you said, "the correct principal"), but the envronment will make it different.

As you mentioned in your follow-up post (after this one which I'm responding to), we don't want to become like many (but not all) of the EMA's who are good at the dojo, but not so good in adverse conditions.

Yep, this is a cool topic <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsn

[Jake_Norwood]

Anybody else think that a good rapier fighter could really mess someone up with a broomstick?

Messer fighters with Maglights?

Dolch/Daga/Rondel fighters with an ASP?

Kampfringen in streetclothes?

Half-swording with the same broomstick? Or Longsword work?

Just remember there's no cross guard.

Jake

[Guest]

Jake you practiced C&T swordsmanship for years, imagine yourself with a police stick dealing with a violent man swinging an impact weapon at innocents... do you think you will be tired of beating him before he gets tired of being beated? nuff said.

[Jake_Norwood]

Yeah. What I was saying is that our training, even without switching to "modern" implements, is quite practical, and in unorthodox ways. No one would think of using a broomstick like a rapier, but I assure you that it would do some real damage.

Jake

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

No Probs Jared.

All,
I must disagree about the applicability of HEMA training to the 21st century. Since we don't duel any more and the fashion that was "would you like to step outside and sort this out" is long gone, we are dealing with a different kind of situation to the one even our fathers were brought up in. We can really only be talking about self protection when referring to the applicability of training to the 21st Century.

The skills required for self protection today are very different from those trained in MA gyms today let alone in systems that have been dead for hundreds of years.

Avoidance, Verbal disuasion, a confident manner and bearing, good footspeed, a strong body and an offensive mindset when forced to fight are far more important than the actual physical skills that we train in in HEMA.

Learning to spar with an opponent by trading blows and blocking shots is great fitness training but has little to do with self defence. Learning to launch surprise attacks from neutral postures and learning to read the same are completely different skills that aren't part of HEMA (unless you study WWII combatives <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />) but are required for real life self protection.

Self protection is about the drunk guy that walks up to you and starts verbally abusing you whilst pushing against your chest. Self protection is about the guy who walks up and puts an 8 inch sharpened screwdriver in your sternal notch and asks less than politely for your valuables. Self protection is about the gang of "homies" that decide to encircle you because you are wearing the wrong thing or have "invaded" their turf.
Self protection is not about two chaps consenting to do battle in perfect light with no obstacles with all the nasty holds barred and with protective equipment. HEMA is just that.

Sorry for the rant, but this is one of my current soapboxes.
Learning to fight is NOT learning to properly protect yourself.

The majority of the skills and training required to protect yourself are not even physical. They are psychological and perceptual.

By all means take your HEMA seriously. Don't think though it is good enough to save your butt in a real situation. For that, you need combatives training.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

Stu-

While I see where you're coming from, I have to disagree on several points.

First, the issue of duels. The evidence for HEMA being used in gentlemanly duels where both parties consented and arranged fights is sparse prior to the 1700s when compared to the number of sudden ambushes and street brawls described. Examples include Cellini's excellent autobiography written in 1558-1566, the Codex Guelf, most recently published here, and Peachey the Shoemaker's Challenge. The first and last especially present situations very, very similar to the kind of thing you describe.

I do agree wholeheartedly that the first step in self-defense is avoiding problems and dealing with them in non-violent ways when practical (as you point out), but I also thing that Fiore's ligadure would put the hurt on any unarmed thug or--in extreme cases--on one armed with a knife or sharpened screwdriver.

Do we train in "neutral" postures and seek to learn to read them--some do. Codex Guelf would imply that that's part of our tradition. Most of the situations you described are "screwed" even for an expert in so-called "combatives." The guy has a knife in your chest? Too late. Circled by homies? Too late.

I think that all the things you describe as lacking are not lacking from HEMA, only from most of our training regimens. Are we training to really fight, or for play, or for sport, or what? None of these is invalid in the long run, but it's foolish to assume that we're all doing (or not doing) any given one of them.

The other things you mention--psychological edges, confident bearing, etc., can all be enhanced by the practice of this art, as our friend George Silver puts forth.

Are we training for the 21st Century? No, we're not. Are we prepared for the eventualities of 21st century personal self defense? I say more than most, not as much as some; it really depends on your personal training regimen and goals of training. Do you spar? Wrestle? If so, how hard? How much of the "unsafe" stuff do you use, even if you probably shouldn't in our "civilized" world?

I fear that we may look through HEMA under too small a lens if we are sensing that these things aren't available from a time period when street brawls, muggings, and ambushings were the norm. There's a reason that men wore their swords around town, and it wasn't all fashion.

Fact is, I wouldn't want to face Hans Talhoffer or Fiore dei Liberi or George Silver in any of the real-world situations that you described, on either side of the conflict.

But no, we're not them yet (if ever), and it's foolish to pretend otherwise.

Respectfully,
Jake

[Guest]

As I was suggesting to Jake, police could make good use of swordsmanship with their anti riot tools, expecially of the intense striking training some of the swordsmen go through.
I think you are referring to Fairbarn and Applegate when you say "wii combatives", they borrowed no little from hema, in particular from sabre fencing, their dagger fighting reminds me of the traditional Italian knife fighting, "sabres" are present in the police stick and smatchet, and of course the side hand blow.
Above all, I was talking with a psychologist who was pondering on the possibility to have young men with problems of various kinds learn Victorian age stick fencing sport, in order to teach them to trust each other...that's an application.
If we used sword moves with light sticks as a gym for people recovering from various sickness, that would be an application, no need to limit ourselves to street self defence.
Carlo

[Jay Vail]

Avoidance, Verbal disuasion, a confident manner and bearing, good footspeed, a strong body and an offensive mindset when forced to fight are far more important than the actual physical skills that we train in in HEMA.

Learning to spar with an opponent by trading blows and blocking shots is great fitness training but has little to do with self defence. Learning to launch surprise attacks from neutral postures and learning to read the same are completely different skills that aren't part of HEMA (unless you study WWII combatives ) but are required for real life self protection.

Self protection is about the drunk guy that walks up to you and starts verbally abusing you whilst pushing against your chest. Self protection is about the guy who walks up and puts an 8 inch sharpened screwdriver in your sternal notch and asks less than politely for your valuables. Self protection is about the gang of "homies" that decide to encircle you because you are wearing the wrong thing or have "invaded" their turf.

Stuart, this is all true. Mental preparedness and street smarts are the first line of defense, and nobody teaches them in a dojo.

But respectfully I must disagree that training in at least some aspects of HEMA do not help you prepare for modern street defense. The techniques illustrated in Fiore for wrestling and dagger defense are excellent and do in fact work on the street, as I have used many of them myself (learned in judo class) or know or read about people who have under conditions exactly as you describe: the ambush or sudden attack from nowhere, to the push-and-shove that escalates into a punchout. I have seen a lot of bull in the MA about what to do when someone pulls a blade, and having training in these methods for many years and recently in Fiore’s I will dare the opinion that Fiore’s method is the best thing out there for small blade defense. Its approach is directly applicable to the modern world. Indeed, the methods advocated by modern teachers, such as Hochheim and Payton Quinn, are very similar.

No method of defense or battery of techniques is perfect. Even the best trained MA can be killed or seriously hurt on the street by an untrained person. All it takes to go down is one small mistake, one bit of mistiming, a fraction of a second’s inattention. And no training method is perfect either or exactly replicates reality. You can only prepare for the worst the best you can, and I believe that Fiore’s approach, at least, provides a good foundation from which to proceed with your training. I am grateful and honored that, at this late stage in life, I’ve had the privilege of being able to study Fiore’s methods.

Yours in study, sweat, and bruises, JV

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi All,

Carlo makes a good point about the value of combat sports. Their purpose is not just to protect but to empower, amuse and occupy.

Jay and Jake,

I think we actually agree more than you guys think. I am in no way saying that the physical techniques do not to a large degree cross over.
In fact, I am currently in the process of researching an article (haven't started writing yet) on "Unarmed Dagger Defence Now and Then". (Yeah I know the title sucks. It is just a working title <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />).

It is the social and situation aspects of application that most people miss.

Most people when teaching a self protection class start with "Ok a guy punches you in the head" or "A guy tries to stick you with his dagger".

Did he just appear out of thin air and start attacking? No he had to choose a target, approach the target and then decide what to do to the target. These things that HE does are just as important as what YOU do in defence in determining the outcome of an engagement.

The all important factors of environment ie light, space, the surface, obstacles, weapon readiness and other factors warning/reaction time, verbal engagement/distraction etc.

If training something like Marozzo's dagger presas, we can just train the physical part if we like. This can create a good technical fighter who operates well under pressure.

If we use scenario training and simulate environmental factors in pressure testing then we create a much, much better fighter. (in addition, this type of training is alot of fun).

Here is an idea for a drill. You will need at least 4 people to do this. Basically the idea is that one chap is put in the middle of the group and put in a fencing mask. The others make a circle around him a few feet away and are given padded daggers. One of the dagger wielders is designated the "caller" and refers to the other dagger wielders in turn.
The drill goes down like this:
The caller yells a name. The person called immediately attacks the chap in the middle who muct attempt to stop the attack. The chap in the middle must either disarm the dagger guy or trap the weapon arm and simulate a disabling strike. After the guy in the middle deals with the attacker, the caller can then call a new name. The drill goes on until the defender is exhausted.

If you try this, BE CAREFUL and start very very slow. Most people have drilled dagger catches against someone standing in front of them. They are not used to having to change their facing before doing so. If enough equipment is available, it is probably a good idea to give the guys on the outside of the circle fencing masks too. This is a necessity if you decide to make the obvious change to the drill of giving the chap in the centre a dagger too.

Once again, BE CAREFUL THAT NOBODY GETS HURT. You will likely be surprised just how inept you are at changing facing and dealing with multiple attacks. I know I was.

We did an empty handed version of this last night using the axe hand strike from WWII combatives (also from Codex Wallerstein) on focus mitts. It was great fun but be careful to line up your strikes before you deliver them to the pad. *Someone* <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> might get hit in the nose <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

I like it, Stu, I like it a lot. We'll be doing this soon.

Jake

[Randall Pleasant]

A simple awareness of your surrounding... There are those situations, like the one described by Randall of a guy who grabbed him from a hidden position...

Stewart

Actually, I had seen the guy acting up on the sidewalk before the incident. My mistake was trying to walk by without being noticed. I should have turned around and crossed over to the other side of the street. Not only do we need awareness of our surroundings, we also need to use good judgement. Remember, just the fact that I even got into the fight indicates a mistake on my part. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I could have gotten hurt, HIV, etc. because I choose to try to walk by. Fighting should have been the last option. We need awareness of both our surroundings and our options!

Really good discussion. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jared L. Cass]

Yep, I totally agree that what is much lacking in many so called MA, is as Randall said Not only do we need awareness of our surroundings, we also need to use good judgement. It's our perceptions and the way we live our lives that will ultimatly keep us safe.

A book which IMO belongs on every serious MAist book shelf is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker. If you guys haven't read it yet, you really should. It relates directly to this line of thought (preventive measures, ect) we're currently discussing. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

As you guys have mentioned, self protection is about alot more than physical skills.

It's that slim chance of being assulted in some way (after having taken all reasonable preventive measures) which IMO, is the reason why many of us train in a MA based on realism. Forget sport MA. By prepairing for the worst, making our training as real and as diverse as possible, and keeping an offensive attitude while being attacked, we should have a good chance of going home after all preventive measures have failed, or worse, sadly been ignored (which we've all done at one time or another <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ).

It's this last bit where MA like HEMA excell (if trained in an appropriate mind set and manner). These were techniques designed to put an end to a fight... and quick. Unfortunatly, living in the society we live today, we must also consider such things as appropriate use of force, legal ramifications, and AIDS.

This is why I believe that applying/training HEMA skills in relation to todays tools, morals, and physical environment, is a must.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

p.s.: Jake, you really don't think we need to practice our weapon skills with modern possible equivilents? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> Just because we may be handy with a longsword designed more for cutting than thrusting, one designed more for thrusting than cutting will handle slightly different. Same overall body mechanics, but different feels and capabilities. And one of the only ways to really feel the difference is to try them both out. Wouldn't the same apply to using a mag-light in place of a messer? Hope this doesn't come across as being rude, which isn't my intention. But could you clarify some more please. Thanks.

[Jake_Norwood]

I say we don't need to practice with modern equivalents so long as we're practicing historical european martial arts. If I actually planned on using any of this in a modern context then I would plan for one. OTOH I think that the only real problem with not training with a mag light is weight and range, which can be quickly overcome with minimal practice. I also think that if your training revolves around principles instead of individual techniques that you'll find yourself more generally capable in a wider variety of situations. We can't possibly train with every potential weapon, though what you're suggesting seems to imply that line of thought (though not so extreme). Instead we should fight with proper timing, distance, and biomechanics, and see that what we're doing is effective in all situations, as that's what fighting (psychology aside) really is.

Jake