The art of the scimitar?

[Vasco Patrício]

Hello.

I've been looking for some time for any sort of information with the arabic curved blade swords (or any kind of, for that matter). While there is an ample amount of anecdotical references and stories about its usage, so far I've yet to come across an established school or training manual. As the sword was a favored weapon by the ancient arabs, for its efficiency was dependant on the user's skill and courage, I am a bit skeptical that the art of its use just dissappeared with the passing of time.

I realize I'm asking this to practicioners of styles a few thousand miles to the northwest of the Arabian peninsula. However, as many of you have probably been immersed in the art of the sword longer and deeper than me, I would be very grateful if you could point me in the right direction.

Thank you for your time.

[Randall Pleasant]

Vasco

Given that Arabic weapons are not what we study without doubt the ARMA Forum is not the best place to seek answers about the scimitar and its use. However, I have to say that I would have a hard time believing anyone who said the historical knowledge on the use of the scimitar had not dissappeared.

[Corey Roberts]

There do exist a number of arabic fighting treatise that I have seen before. We in ARMA of course do not specialize in this area, but it is my general feeling that the use of the sword in the Arab world as a combative tool (not as an executional instrument however) probably went into disuse in a similiar fashion as did European historical armaments. Especially given the degree of calamitous change and varying divergent upheavels which have occured in that region of the world, I highly doubt you can find any living schools teaching the usage of A-Saif al Arabiy.

However, it can be noted that the sword is still used today in certain regions of the Arab world as a method of execution ( I do not wish to discuss the morality or ethical concerns with this particular practice, simply noting the existance of said practice) So to a limited degree you are sort of correct, the Sword still hasn't quite gone out of fashion in parts of the Arab world.

[Sal Bertucci]

Wasn't there a "mace" topic a while back that talked about Arabic weapons?

[Maxime Chouinard]

I think it was in this thread yes. Manouchehr Moshtagh is doing some research on the subject and it is said he came up with some materials. Why don't we see much here? Well those books are in Arabic, while there are many people in the west that are fluent in west European languages, there are not so many people who speak Arabic and other local dialects, even less so with connections through Arabic libraries (it's very difficult to work around countries that have tenous diplomatic links, for example if you do research in Syria you are banned from doing it in Israel, and vice-versa) or that have an interest in ancient weapon usage. It's unfortunately a common problem in many historic branches, we cannot be sure of anything until someone actually bury himself in the archives and tells us what he finds.

[Vasco Patrício]

Thank you all for your replies.

Corey, can you tell me if the treatises you found are acessible via Internet or otherwise? Specific names would be a must. Whoever did a google search on scimitar or saif probably knows how many acronyms for everything other than bladed weapons it returns.

[Corey Roberts]

I do not specifically know where any of these treatises can be found on the internet, as I do not believe there is an active movement to reconstruct medieval arab military skills. The only thing I can give you as far as where to start looking is this article from the Egyptian news media Al-Ahram, which lists a number of Arabic military treatises:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/615/cu4.htm



You might also look up a treatise called "On Swords and their kinds" by a Yaqub ibn Ishaq al kindi which although not a fighting manual is a medieval arab treatise on the making of swords.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Actually, ancient and medieval Arabic sword were straight and double-edged, and their usage probably had a great deal in common with European swords up until at least the end of the Crusades. In fact, my friends had a great deal of fun horsing around some time ago by putting a short crossguard and a slightly curved grip on a waster to make it an "Arabic" sword and found that most I.33 techniques work reasonably well with it. For medieval Middle Eastern curved swords you'd be better served by looking at Persian, Turkish, or Eastern European sources.

[Corey Roberts]

Although it is true that Arab weapons during the Medieval period were predominantly straight and double edged, beginning in about the 14th and 15th centuries Arab weapons began to be primarily curved, taking after as you said Persian and Turkish models. Being that Vasco specifically asked about curved Arab weapons I assumed he was referring to that particular period. Although once again, I don't really know where one can specifically find treatise on the subject other than what I have already named.

[Vasco Patrício]

Thank you all for the answers. On the topic of the curvature of the blade, I think the curved design was not altogether unpopular in ancient and medieval times. Zulfiqar, a legendary blade of Iman Ali, was recorded to be a double-pronged scimitar (not 100% sure whether or not it's just a modern depiction though). Also, given that Arabs were quite proficient in horse fighting and raiding, saber-like designs were unlikely to be ignored. But that's just my less than informed opinion.

A puzzling thing is that medieval "arab" armies were actually composed of people from many countries and ethnicities, and even more backgrounds. Manuals of the time were likely influenced by all their fighting techniques, probably distilled for their effectiveness.

[Corey Roberts]

Zulfiqar, or Dhulfaqar was the legendary sword of the Prophet Muhammad, Not 'Ali,which according to legend was split vertically down the middle at the battle of Badr in the 7th century. The weapon is always depicted as a straight bladed double edged weapon. Never as a curved weapon. As this was the common weapon form of the Arab peoples at that time.

[Vasco Patrício]

It was given to him by Muhammad at a later date, though, hence became his.

Actually, there are armies of Muslim countries whose insignias depict a curved blade Zulfiqar. I'm guessing they took some artistic liberties...

[Corey Roberts]

You're correct, my mistake.

[Stacy Clifford]

Actually, there are armies of Muslim countries whose insignias depict a curved blade Zulfiqar. I'm guessing they took some artistic liberties...

No worse I suppose than books like the Maciejowski Bible, where Biblical warriors fight with Medieval weapons and armor:

http://www.thearma.org/arttalk/at1NEW.htm

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Also, given that Arabs were quite proficient in horse fighting and raiding, saber-like designs were unlikely to be ignored.

Arab horsemen used the lance. The sword and the bow were (at least originally) regarded as infantry weapons--note how the sword duel between the six champions at Badr were done on foot, and the fact that Arab swords from the Conquest period had a strong resemblance to the Roman spatha and even (to some degree) the gladius.

And of course the "cavalry = curved swords" argument is flawed at the core; if it's supposed to hold true, then why didn't European men-at-arms exchange all their straight swords for curved ones, seeing as they spent most of their military service doing raids and scouting expeditions in classic light cavalry style?

A puzzling thing is that medieval "arab" armies were actually composed of people from many countries and ethnicities, and even more backgrounds.

But they tried hard to maintain the ethnic divisions, partly because the Arabs felt they were superior due to their early introduction to Islam and partly because they wanted to keep the tactical diversity for the sake of versatility. Remember that the Arabs settled their jund soldiers in barracks separate from local cities and prohibited intermarriage with local citizens, and the fact that intermarriages eventually did happen was decried as a sign of military decline long with the increasing recruitment of Turks. As for the Turks themselves . . . if you read the primary source documents, you'd see a really strong distinction between "Arab" and "Turk," and the Arabs (which by the time of the Turks' coming had begun to encompass the region we now regard as "Arab" as opposed to the original and more restricted definition of "peninsulars and Bedouins") were leery of members of their own ethnicity who sported Turkic affectations, including the curved sword. It wasn't until the Ottoman Turkish conquest in the 15th century that curved swords lost their association with an image of ethnic inferiority in the Arabs' eyes.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't look for sources on medieval Middle Eastern use of the curved sword--just warning you that the ones you'd find would be Persian or Turkish styles rather than Arab ones, at least until the Ottoman conquest of Syria, Egypt, and Arabia proper.