Based on test cuts, is "edge smearing" effective?

[Chris Ouellet]

Sal's video shows a slice, but it's against the top forearm where there is considerable muscle and when the attacker is not in danger of immediate counter-attack. It's a properly executed slice.
Can I ask does the german translate to slice his forearm or is it just "arm". With the positioning of the players the bicep/elbow pit looks like it can be reached and is a perhaps a better target.

Max's video shows a slash - a slow motion slash but the sword is clearly moving through a wide arc. Rising slashes against a sword held high are very common and without doubt useful and effective.

We can certainly argue terminology, a slice occurs when the blade is not thrown through an wide arc. The blade lands on the surface with little-to-no angular motion and is drawn or pushed across to cause the damage.

The question again is: does a slice landing on the under part of the forearms while the opponent is raising to land a slash exist in the historical record? Particularly both forarms as Brandon suggested.
I don't think so, there is little muscle and a prominent bone, the ulna, and from my experience slices are not performed when there is risk of immediate and much more damaging counter-attack.
And thanks for the legwork guys, I'm honestly curious. Among my own resources I can't find this particular slice.

[Stacy Clifford]

I can't remember the source and it would take a lot more legwork than I have time for to figure out, but there is a technique I've known for a long time called "pressing the hands." In essence when your opponent is in vom tag preparing to strike down at you, you throw your edge up toward his forearms or wrists from underneath to prevent him from bringing his blow down (assuming you don't have the opportunity to do something better like stab him in the chest), letting him slam into it while still very high, then slice across as you pull your blade away to wind into another counter. It may or may not do a lot of damage, but as Brandon said, it completely stifles any blow he was going to throw and puts you in a good position to follow up. Any damage it does is a bonus.

Something else also occurred to me regarding slicing under the forearms. You're right that the bones are positioned to protect against slices going straight across, but that's not an accurate description of what we're doing. Remember first that on a longsword one hand is higher than the other, so the forearms are not perfectly parallel. Also, we don't usually slice in a straight line from side to side, we slice in an arc. As long as the blade is in contact with both arms then its motion is constrained to sliding across the bones. However, once the tip passes over the bone of the outer arm into the space between them, it's now rotating around only one single fixed point on the other arm. If you're really leveraging the tip to create pressure, then it's going to slide down the inside of the arm toward the face once it swings free, and then slide back across the inside of the opposite arm on its way out. I just tried this on my car's bicycle rack (almost exactly my shoulder width) with a waster to test it and it did exactly that. Notice there is a lot of meat on the inside edge of your forearms, and we've done test cutting with just the tip showing that it can still leave deep and nasty wounds. So looking at it from this perspective, I think you oversimplified your physics just a bit and your forearm bones don't protect you in a three-dimensional encounter as much as you thought they did. That's not to say it's absolutely fight-ending damage, but I think the potential is definitely there to severely weaken or cripple your opponent's arms by cutting through muscle and tendon.

[Chris Ouellet]

I can't remember the source and it would take a lot more legwork than I have time for to figure out, but there is a technique I've known for a long time called "pressing the hands."

Anyone else know the source of "pressing the hands"?
I'm guessing this slice if it exists in the historical record is an uncommon technique from the degree of difficulty of finding a source or example.
Stopping a raised arm blow, then grappling I've seen (and done). The sword is generally held there until control of the primary sword arm is achieved, not moved away, which would allow for immediate counter-attack.

I fully agree with you Stacy that the inside forearm is a good target, there are innumerable examples of this being so, and that if this technique is to be done at all you should angle your blade towards soft tissue after the initial arm is sliced, perhaps easier done left-right than right-left from geometry.
This move as described nonetheless starts its slice effectively on bone, which immediately flags it as dubious in my opinion. I'm sure we can all agree neck, armpit, inner thigh, inner calf, inner forearm, inside elbow-bicep, back of the knee and abdomen are all excellent targets for slices to be performed in situations with no imminent counter-attack. They don't start on bone and they don't end on bone - if you do end on bone you've cut very very deep.

Improper slicing is again my pet peeve, that why I insist a historical precedent before I agree to a call a slice valid. The back of the knee "coup de Jarnac" is quite famous in HEMA for instance, this is not a dubious slice at all.

[Andrew Peoples]

Anyone else know the source of "pressing the hands"?
I'm guessing this slice if it exists in the historical record is an uncommon technique from the degree of difficulty of finding a source or example.
Stopping a raised arm blow, then grappling I've seen (and done). The sword is generally held there until control of the primary sword arm is achieved, not moved away, which would allow for immediate counter-attack.

I'm no expert but I believe it's from Sigmund Ringeck. I'm currently reading through Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword and in the "Das Schnitt" section he describes something that sounds similar:

"If you can use the lower cut at his arm as you close with him so that the point of your sword points to his right side, then push up with force in the cut. As you push, leap with the left foot to his right side and wind your sword with the long edge up over his arms so that the point of your sword points to his left side. And push his arms away from you."

Essentially the cut seems to start on the bottom of the arm then rotates around the outside of the right arm, slicing tendons on the way I assume, and then ends up on top of the arms. The authors say that it is useful in the Krieg or in the bind when he tries to come around to the other side. This sounds reasonable to me. Although once again I'm no expert, I've only been a member since October.

~Andrew Peoples

[Richard Strey]

There are two different Handarbeiten (Handworks/Devices) in Meyer's treatise dealing with slices, translation by J. L. Forgeng):

Slicing [Schneiden] 1.18r (p.62 in Forgeng's transation)
"This is also one of the true core techniques in the handwork; for when your opponent rushes upon you with quick and swift devices, you can stop and hinder him with no technique better than with the slice, which you schould hold in stock for yourself among all techniques as a particular gem to discover. Now you must execute the slice thus:

After you have caught your opponent's sword with the bind, you shall remain there to feel whether he intends to withdraw from the bind or strike around. As soon as he strikes around, then persue him with the long edge on his arm; push him back from you with your forte or shield [the flared part of the blade immediately in front of the cross], let your weapon fly and cut to the nearest opening before he can recover.

Pressing Hands [Hendtrucken] 1.21v (p.66 in Forgeng's translation)
"Pressing hands strongly resembles the slices on the arm, concerning which I have spoken above, since it is always executed as with the High and Low Slice [meaning the above device can be performed from below, as well as above].

For example, if an opponent overruns you with cloddish blows, then go under his stroke with the Crown, or else a high parrying, or go under him with hanging, and catch his sword on the flat of your blade. And when you come under his sword, then if he goes back up from your weapon with his stroke, see that you persue him with your forte, and fall on him [the translation is unclear here: "auf die ... fallen" means to make rapid, decisive contact; it does not carry any information regarding vertical motion] with your shield from below in front of his fists, so that you get them with the forte of your blade. Push him up away from you with your shield, and cut long towards the opening."

Italics are comments by me.
What we can take from these citations is that the slice does work and is useful as a setup for a decisive blow. Whether the opponent actually gets cut during this action is secondary to the actual physical displacement of the arms and sword. Now, in Meyer's time, performing this action with the longswords used in price playing would not hurt the arms, so it is not surprising his text lacks a description of the possible effects. Effects that may be there, but are not *needed* for the action to be of serious use.

Edit:
Andrew's post actually deals with the action I was describing in my earlier post. Nice.

[Jon Pellett]

Abschneiden and Handdruecken are two of the 17 chief techniques in Liechtenauer's system. That's not exactly rare or obscure.

[Stacy Clifford]

Nice find guys, thanks, that's what I was referring to. My description was a little off, but it got the idea across.

[Chris Ouellet]

"This is also one of the true core techniques in the handwork (...) which you schould hold in stock for yourself among all techniques as a particular gem to discover.

It's really interesting to see the contrast between European and Asian preference in their technique.

From the book of five rings by Miyamoto Musashi: Book of water -
"Differences in slashing and slicing attacks "
"Slicing can be equated with just tapping the enemy with either a sword or fist. It is not a truly resolved and committed attack. Slashing means that you are firmly resolved to destroy the enemy in one move. This is urgently important to understand. Regardless of the intent of the enemy, you must fire with full force and authority. If you do not, then the opponent will see you as weak and perhaps have no difficulty in slashing you.
Slashing is proper form and understanding. Slicing is based on lack of skill and little belief in your own skills."

and fall on him [the translation is unclear here: "auf die ... fallen" means to make rapid, decisive contact; it does not carry any information regarding vertical motion] with your shield from below in front of his fists, so that you get them with the forte of your blade. Push him up away from you with your shield, and cut long towards the opening."

Is this not a shield manoeuvre? I can fully understand walking in on an opponent who is in a raised stance with both sword and shield pressing to the bottom of the forearm and when your shield remains in place to ward against the possible counter-attack, slicing across the under arm to follow up with a real blow. This as described is perfectly reasonable. The threat of immediate and decisive counter-attack is not present.
Any examples of doing this with just a longsword?

What we can take from these citations is that the slice does work and is useful as a setup for a decisive blow.

Agreed, it isn't in itself decisive. I'm still surprised there's no talk of targets for slicing, it seems to be a "get what you can" philosophy. Interesting. When it comes to a slash that's my own vantage.

[Stacy Clifford]

Is this not a shield manoeuvre? I can fully understand walking in on an opponent who is in a raised stance with both sword and shield pressing to the bottom of the forearm and when your shield remains in place to ward against the possible counter-attack, slicing across the under arm to follow up with a real blow. This as described is perfectly reasonable. The threat of immediate and decisive counter-attack is not present.
Any examples of doing this with just a longsword?

This is from Meyer's longsword section, the term "shield" is being used figuratively because your blade is in a position to shield you from your opponent's blow and is being used as such to push his hands back, only with a sharp edge instead of a flat board. I think you slice away from the maneuver as you let go of it to move on because really it doesn't make any sense to ever let your blade contact the enemy without leaving some damage behind, even if it's relatively minor.

I would agree that Europeans have a very practical "get what you can" kind of philosophy, though it's very clear that they focus on ending the fight as quickly as possible. Many of the masters seem to have an understanding that fighting is messy and you need other options in your repertoire besides one-shot kill moves to survive, but they all love those quick-kill blows just as much as Musashi. From my reading of Di Grassi, a lot of those face slices I listed don't describe a follow-up, but if you do them correctly then they leave you in such an obvious position to finish with a thrust that I think Di Grassi assumes you can figure it out from here.

[Cory Winslow]

Hi Guys,

Meyer uses the term "Shield" (Schilt) to describe the flared part of the longsword just above the cross.

Take care,
Cory

[Chris Ouellet]

Interesting, I stand corrected.

Is that part of the longsword typically sharp or held dull?

[Richard Strey]

Just for the record, I provided that info, as well. Second paragraph of the "Slicing" description. From my experience, that part of the weapon is dull.

[Stacy Clifford]

Just for the record, I provided that info, as well. Second paragraph of the "Slicing" description. From my experience, that part of the weapon is dull.

Ah, you're right, you did, my apologies for missing it.

[Chris Ouellet]

I re-read your post Richard and I'm trying to understand the Meyer techniques. Let's look at the first one first.

After you have caught your opponent's sword with the bind, you shall remain there to feel whether he intends to withdraw from the bind or strike around. As soon as he strikes around, then persue him with the long edge on his arm; push him back from you with your forte or shield, let your weapon fly and cut to the nearest opening before he can recover.

As you describe it correct me if I'm wrong:
1. Bind.
2. Opponent attempts to strike around the bind
3. Follow opponent's attempted strike placing sharp forward section of the sword lengthwise on the opponent's arm and maintaining the forte close or on to the opponent's wrist
4. Forcibly pushing with the dull section on the opponent's wrists, negating his counter-attack and slice lengthwise
5. Cut down the opponent with a slash before he recovers from either the push or the slicing wound.

I say "lengthwise" because I can't readily visualise getting a cross position with both the sharp end of the sword touching the arm and being able to substantially push with the forte or shield.

[Greg Coffman]

Follow opponent's attempted strike placing sharp forward section of the sword lengthwise on the opponent's arm and maintaining the forte close or on to the opponent's wrist.

With some swords, the forte might not have been sharpened or as sharp as the point, but I don't think that would be the norm. The "shield" would not be sharpened, but that is only a small part of the sword and is not the same thing as the forte. The sword could very well be sharp all way down the edge, through the forte, as many swords were. In that case you would be slicing the opponent. But even if the sword is not sharp on the forte, having the blade there on his or her arms should stifle the cut around and give you the initiative to strike at an opening or withdraw.

Of course Meyer is talking about and has artwork depicting federschwerts which would be not be sharp at all, but with an understandood application to sharp swords. Most sharp longswords don't have a "shield" anyways.