Ochs vs Hanging guard?

[Jonathan Newhall]

I've never quite gotten the exact distinction between the purposes of a hanging guard versus that of a high side guard such as German Ochs (I believe the Italian version is called finestre or a similar word for window).

This seems like a simple question, but without the aid of an actual ARMA group presently, books don't do the best job explaining the differentiation in usage. Any help guys?

[Randall Pleasant]

I've never quite gotten the exact distinction between the purposes of a hanging guard versus that of a high side guard such as German Ochs (I believe the Italian version is called finestre or a similar word for window).

This seems like a simple question, but without the aid of an actual ARMA group presently, books don't do the best job explaining the differentiation in usage. Any help guys?

Jonathan

A Hanging is a position a person moves through quickly as a parrying action against an Oberhau but it is not a position a person can stand it for a period of time. Hanging Point is a Meyer guard (if I remember right) but it is really just a varation of Ochs. Ochs too can be used to parry (absetzen) against a Zornhau. Think of Ochs as a stable position and a Hanging as an unstable position.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Ah, thank you - so it's like long point then? A position you will move through on occasion, but not one you should generally hold?

Makes sense to me now, I was a tad confused for a little while there

[Stacy Clifford]

Right, you jump out into the hanging position to ward off an attack and then immediately wind from there into a counter. You treat it like kron; you don't stand in kron and wait, you move forward from a stable guard to meet the opponent in kron.

[Shane Smith]

Ochs fascilitates a stop of the opponents weapon often times as it covers a line and brings your point to bear. The hengen deflects/sheds an opponents weapon as it covers lines.

[Greg Coffman]

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with standing in hangen. To me, hangen is to ochs as shrankhut is to alber, and what is wrong with standing in shrankhut? In hangen, you can do practically all the same things you can from ochs. If you lower the guard it actually becomes a shrankhut. These are all positions you find yourself in when moving the sword. Each can legitimately be a starting point as well as a middle or ending point. Haven't we all adopted longpoint as an initial guard at some point in sparring?

[Shane Smith]

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with standing in hangen. To me, hangen is to ochs as shrankhut is to alber, and what is wrong with standing in shrankhut? In hangen, you can do practically all the same things you can from ochs. If you lower the guard it actually becomes a shrankhut. These are all positions you find yourself in when moving the sword. Each can legitimately be a starting point as well as a middle or ending point. Haven't we all adopted longpoint as an initial guard at some point in sparring?

Longpoint offers the threat of the point as does ochs.Schrankhut offers the threat of the pretty quick cut and a good deflection. Hengen used as a static guard offers little real threat to the other guy since the cut from there is a long time in coming compared to a guard designed to offer the threat of a cut in my opinion and experience.

[Stacy Clifford]

I agree with Shane, and I'll add that hengen and schrankhut work best only when you're coming up or across your body into them with counterforce against a blow. You have to actively aim those defenses so that the blow lands on the strong. If you just stand there in those two guards and let me pick where I want to attack them, I'll take the weak and blow through them every time. If I do that, your only recourse is to void and counter before I pin your sword against you. I look at those two guards like car airbags - deploy them during a collision and they'll save you, but deploy them while driving and they'll cause a collision.

[Greg Coffman]

But we shouldn't use any guard statically. I can bring my point online from hangen very quickly, or cut the same cuts that one would from ochs.

Schrankhut offers the threat of the pretty quick cut and a good deflection.

I think hangen does this as well.

If you just stand there in those two guards and let me pick where I want to attack them, I'll take the weak and blow through them every time.

Again, I think this is true of any guard.

[Stacy Clifford]

I've seen this type of argument before. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's wise. Hengen and schrankhut are defensive guards with the flat facing out and the point down, meaning they require extra motion to bring the offense to bear. Fractions of a second do make a difference. If you throw one of these guards out when I've committed my attack, then you stop it, spend my energy and give yourself the time needed to bring your offense around. If you put those guards out there before I attack, you just give me a chance to avoid them altogether and hit you somewhere else, forcing you to move your guard anyway or try to turn a compound attack (turn, aim and fire) against my simple attack (fire). If you're in ochs, pflug, vom tag, alber or nebenhut, you're already aimed and ready to fire. It's a faster reaction and a better deterrent than waiting in a defense that probably won't even be attacked. It doesn't take much wasted motion to be fatally wasted motion. Trust me, spar against Aaron P. a few rounds and see if you're still willing to risk it. I'm one of the fastest people in ARMA and I'm not.

[Randall Pleasant]

Greg

Master Liechtenauer was very clear about the guards he thought were safe. Master Liechtenauer did not consider a hanging to be a guard, much less a safe place to rest. This is also testable, just stand in a hanging and let Shane and Stacy take shots at you.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Isn't the whole point of the longsword's stances that they offer both an offensive and defensive avenue, however? (Pun not intended, although quite entertaining :p) Guards like Ochs and Pflug threaten with the point and lighter slashes or slices while maintaining a good defensive posture - schrankhut and the hanging guard seem more like they focus even more on defense at the expense of offense. Some offensive stances (like Vom Tag) threaten the opponent by merely being in use, and so cause them to become more defensive to compensate.

It's kind of like the before, current, and after concepts, right? The offense acts first, because if it succeeds it is a hit and you win, hopefully. The defensive specific stances are deployed at the exact time you need them (now) and not anticipatorily (as they would be simply maneuvered around), nor too late to be useful. Finally the classic counter-maneuver (riposte in terms of sport fencing/late modern fencing, I believe) which is deployed in the "after", or after the attack on the user has been defeated and he may commence an attack of his own while his opponent is recovering.

Would this be a good conceptual grasp of the various use of the stances in regards to good times to move into them?

[ChristineChurches]

There is a reason that the masters specifically name four guards - ochs, phlug, vom tag, and alber.

It was explained to me that while you should never hang out in one position, these are your starting points. All other guards are places you wind up either as a result of defending yourself (schrankhut and hangentorte for example) or after making a cut or thrust (wechsel, nebenhut, langenort)

One of the reasons not to hang out in any purely defensive guard is becuse your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do - try to defend. None of the masters advocate this.


For he who defends against strikes
is always in greater danger than the one
who strikes, since he must either defend
or allow himself to be hit if he is to have a
chance to strike a blow himself. That is why
Liechtenauer says; “I say truthfully, no man
can defend without danger”
from the Lindholm translation of Cod.HS.3227a

[Greg Coffman]

One of the reasons not to hang out in any purely defensive guard is becuse your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do - try to defend.

I don't think there is a "purely defensive guard." Most guards closes off certain lines of attack while leaving other lines open. Some guards don't even do this such as vom tag and nebenhut. And yet, I would not say that vom tag, for example, is a purely offensive guard either.

Master Liechtenauer was very clear about the guards he thought were safe. Master Liechtenauer did not consider a hanging to be a guard, much less a safe place to rest.

My understanding of Liechtenauer is that he was interested in simplification and not specifying each individual position. Therefore, he would consider the position of hangen ort to be a variation of ochs, and likewise, iron door to be a variation of alber.

If you're in ochs, pflug, vom tag, alber or nebenhut, you're already aimed and ready to fire.

And I think you should be "aimed and ready to fire" from any of the guards.

Hengen and schrankhut are defensive guards with the flat facing out and the point down, meaning they require extra motion to bring the offense to bear.

They don't require any additional motion than vom tag does. Nor are they purely or solely defensive guards. You can cut just as easily from hangen as you can from ochs. You can thrust just as easily from hangen as you can from alber.

This is also testable, just stand in a hanging and let Shane and Stacy take shots at you.

It doesn't matter what guard you adopt, you shouldn't let someone just take shots at you.

Goliath text from http://www.schielhau.org
(I believe they are translating krumphau as "arc strike")
page 37:
Another

You should also try the arc strike from the barrier guard, from either side, And thus set yourself in this guard: when you come to him in the pre-fencing, then stand with the left foot forward and hold your sword close on your right side with your point to the ground so that your long edge is above, and give an opening on the left side. If he strikes to the opening, then burst out from the strike with your right foot toward him well to your right side, And strike him with crossed hands, from the long edge with the point out to his hands.

Of the Barrier Guard

Put yourself thus in the barrier guard to your left side: when you come to him with it in the pre-fencing, then stand with the right foot forward and hold your sword near your left side to the ground with crossed hands, so the short edge is above, and give an opening with your right side, if he Strikes to your opening, then burst out of the strike toward him with the left foot well to his right side, and strike in the burst with the short edge over the hands.

[ChristineChurches]

Master Liechtenauer was very clear about the guards he thought were safe. Master Liechtenauer did not consider a hanging to be a guard, much less a safe place to rest.
My understanding of Liechtenauer is that he was interested in simplification and not specifying each individual position. Therefore, he would consider the position of hangen ort to be a variation of ochs, and likewise, iron door to be a variation of alber.

From what others have said Liechtenauer stated specifically that there were four guards - very simplistic. As I said before there is a reason for this. All other guards/wards/positions are result of action. Yes you can wind up in alber from a cut from vom tag, or ochs from a schielhau, but the other "secondary" guards - if you will - are purely defensive - places one winds up in the process of protecting oneself, but one does not stay there. Being there does not end a fight. While "hangenort" may be a variation of ochs, it is only a place you "wind up", not a starting spot.

Goliath text from http://www.schielhau.org
(I believe they are translating krumphau as "arc strike")
page 37:
Another

You should also try the arc strike from the barrier guard, from either side, And thus set yourself in this guard: when you come to him in the pre-fencing, then stand with the left foot forward and hold your sword close on your right side with your point to the ground so that your long edge is above, and give an opening on the left side. If he strikes to the opening, then burst out from the strike with your right foot toward him well to your right side, And strike him with crossed hands, from the long edge with the point out to his hands.

Of the Barrier Guard

Put yourself thus in the barrier guard to your left side: when you come to him with it in the pre-fencing, then stand with the right foot forward and hold your sword near your left side to the ground with crossed hands, so the short edge is above, and give an opening with your right side, if he Strikes to your opening, then burst out of the strike toward him with the left foot well to his right side, and strike in the burst with the short edge over the hands.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.