Safety Concerns

[Jonathan Newhall]

Welcome to another question of mine, undoubtedly these are getting tedious for the veteran practitioners, but hey, this is a great place and you guys always help!

I was wondering what specific kind of gear you guys would recommend when beginning free sparring to prevent injury? Neither I nor my partner have any real practice beyond technique drills yet, and the next logical step is a real application of technique to a mock fight. However, due to our lack of practice in control, some safety gear would likely be in order even for semi-contact free sparring (hey, we're bound to overstep once or twice by accident in the process of learning!)

So, what does ARMA and its fellows recommend in terms of (not too expensive, on a budget here - starving student and all that :p) equipment for preventing injury? Or if you don't have time to outline it for me yourself, could you point me at an article that does? This place is like the library of congress for HEMA - it has everything, can't find anything.

[CalebChow]

For wood waster sparring we typically use hockey helmets and lacrosse gloves instead of my fencing gear since it's a tad bit sturdier with more padding. However, since hockey helmets have gaps in it we don't allow thrusts when sparring with wood against those helmets.

The main thing is face, neck, and hand protection. If you go to a used sports equipment store I'd imagine you'd be able to get everything you need for around $100, waster excluded.

As for nylon waster sparring, lighter gear will work but face+neck protection is still necessary.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Ah you reminded me I forgot to mention it will be with wooden wasters (again, due to the cost factor).

[Greg Coffman]

I recommend a fencing mask, a cup, and a pair of gloves. You can get a fencing mask online for $55 from amazon.com. Gloves are the sticky part. Lacross gloves allow the maximum padding for hands while meeting minimum standards for agility (hockey gloves are comparable but lack good flexibility in the thumb). But there are a lot of other options too. You can run a search on our forum to find loads of discussion on the pluses and minuses of various gloves. I just use plain leather gloves for most work.

[Jason Taylor]

I recommend lacrosse gloves myself, but I found eventually I needed to modify them--I'll try to post some photos of what I did. Someone mentioned they'd like to see the process earlier, and I forgot to get those photos online. Mostly I find the side of the index finger and the facing side of the thumb need to be padded and preferably have a hard plastic plate inserted for maximum protection.

We're also working on modifying our helmets here. I use hockey, because the fencing mask is not designed with blunt impact in mind--there's virtually no padding. Plus the throat protection is worse than useless, because it looks like it's protected but it really isn't. A bendy foil is a lot more likely to be convince to turn aside by 1/4" or less of padding than a hickory waster point, 'Na mean? I'm trying to permanently affix a throat shield, but the hockey goalie throat protectors work pretty well, with the possible caveat that you may want to run a thin layer of foam along the lower edge because downward strikes that catch it tend to grind your collarbone, which is a pretty sharp edge on just skin over bone. I don't think it would break anything, but it'd likely be a nasty bruise with enough force behind the strike.

Alternatively, a regular padded hockey gorget under the shirt, and layered under the throat protector, would probably eliminate this problem.

We've been trying hard here to find protection for the important targets (head & throat, primarily) without sacrificing mobility. I've got some possibilities in the works, but nothing definitive yet. When I get the money together to invest in the pieces I need, I'll post something and see if anyone can use the ideas (assuming they work).

Jason

Welcome to another question of mine, undoubtedly these are getting tedious for the veteran practitioners, but hey, this is a great place and you guys always help!

I was wondering what specific kind of gear you guys would recommend when beginning free sparring to prevent injury? Neither I nor my partner have any real practice beyond technique drills yet, and the next logical step is a real application of technique to a mock fight. However, due to our lack of practice in control, some safety gear would likely be in order even for semi-contact free sparring (hey, we're bound to overstep once or twice by accident in the process of learning!)

So, what does ARMA and its fellows recommend in terms of (not too expensive, on a budget here - starving student and all that :p) equipment for preventing injury? Or if you don't have time to outline it for me yourself, could you point me at an article that does? This place is like the library of congress for HEMA - it has everything, can't find anything.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Alright, thanks guys. I'll make sure to keep this in mind - we'll start on the slower side of sparring and work our way through towards more intent in the free-sparring once we learn more control and moves become more instinctive.

This was really helpful!

[Anthony Pendleton]

However, due to our lack of practice in control, some safety gear would likely be in order even for semi-contact free sparring (hey, we're bound to overstep once or twice by accident in the process of learning!)

Jonathan,

More important than getting safety gear, I'd strongly recommend addressing the "lack of practice in control" you mention - it really is the best form of "safety" you'll have while drilling and sparring, with or without protective gear.

Pell and partnered drills at full speed and intent, stopping both on and immediately before contact - with any and all attacks or counters you would use - will help a ton with gaining skill in control. Once our group made a point of focusing on this in addition to other drills, we were able to push harder and faster in both drills and freeplay, with safety.

Anthony
ARMA Sacramento

[Jonathan Newhall]

Yeah, I was just wondering what we can use while we work on that

[Jason Taylor]

Another suggestion just occurred to me. I sometimes wear shin and knee protectors. I know they're not absolutely necessary most of the time, but a shot with hickory against the shin smarts--plus it can disrupt your ability to train at 100% for a day or so.

I bought riot gear leg protectors for $30 online. They work great--just enough sting gets through to make the point that I was hit, but nothing lasting. Plus, the knee is fully protected, since that's the part that can actually get damaged.

Not to mention that they look pretty cool, too....

Jason

[Jaron Bernstein]

If you are practicing harnisfechten (fighting in armor), then train and spar in your armor as much as possible. If you are practicing the blossfechten (unarmored) side then you don't want to armor up excessively or very much at all.


Firstly, you absolutely must have good head protection. A three weapon fencing mask will serve provided you use control as well as intent. Brian Hunt makes a great helmet especially geared for historical fencing. Kendo or Kali/Escrima helmets have also been used. Just make sure the face openings are smaller than the point of the waster you are facing. This allows thrusts to the face. Try and find a helmet that provides a bib or some equivalent attached throat protection.

There are different views on gloves (to wear them or not). If you do wear gloves get ones that allow maximum dexterity. Hard backed tightly fitting motocross gloves are the best I have come across so far toward that end.

Beyond that I wouldn't add more than maybe elbow pads and a groin cup. Gambesons were historically worn. But do NOT turn unarmored fighting (meant to be highly mobile and fast) into two guys padded to the gills standing still and "taking hits". Your best bet is to use a good helmet and maybe gloves ONLY. If you are using intent that means you will get bumps and thumps That is OK. It teaches you to move and defend in ways you might not if your armor just soaks up the hit. Also, hits to the body and legs, while painful, for the most part do not hinder your regular life. I am sporting several colorful bruises picked up in class tonight as I type this. Broken fingers and concussions are a different matter. Hence the head and hands, but leave the rest exposed.

[Stacy Clifford]

I tend to wear forearm pads just because I get hit there the most and they take the worst of the sting out (though by no means all, trust me). Aside from that I only use lacrosse gloves and a fencing mask as Jaron suggests. I like the basic idea of motocross gloves, but I've never seen a pair that has any thumb or fingertip protection at all. Even with the gloves I've got, I've still had fingernails peel off after a hit on the quick, and almost every time it's on the thumb. Just goes to show nothing's perfect.

[Chris Ouellet]

Please don't start sparring with wood. Wood can kill, it's not a joke. A simulator like the ones suggested on the ARMA website isn't that expensive and it's very much worth your life and limb.
As people have already pointed out control is essential. Something I would like to point out that you may not know but is really important: if you want to do contact sparring with a simulator and hit your opponent with speed don't try to cut through your opponent i .e. don't maintain a firm grip as though you were cutting a target. You should relax your grip at impact. It will still sting but it will greatly reduce the chance of any real injury.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Please don't start sparring with wood. Wood can kill, it's not a joke. A simulator like the ones suggested on the ARMA website isn't that expensive and it's very much worth your life and limb.
As people have already pointed out control is essential. Something I would like to point out that you may not know but is really important: if you want to do contact sparring with a simulator and hit your opponent with speed don't try to cut through your opponent i .e. don't maintain a firm grip as though you were cutting a target. You should relax your grip at impact. It will still sting but it will greatly reduce the chance of any real injury.

In terms of wasters, IMO plastics tend to sting, but they don't really break bones in the same way wooden wasters do. The other nice thing about plastics is they are far more durable than wood. We only had our first catastrophic failure (blade broke in half) yesterday, after years of sparring with them. Wooden wasters die long before that.

[Jason Taylor]

Just wanted to be clear on what I do with my padding, so as not to give the wrong impression.

I tend to wear more protection than most, but I don't advocate padding up and exchanging blows. In our practices, we've always made a point of treating every bout as if we were practicing bolssfechten with sharps--no one is allowed to trade blows or ignore something that clearly would have been lethal or incapacitating.

I advocate the leg protection actually for three reasons. One, because I've had cracks on the shins that have disrupted my ability to walk for a few days. I wasn't crippled, but bending my ankle was stiff and difficult. Similar things have happened to my calf. This in itself isn't a big deal--as Jaron said, bumps and thumps are to be expected, and I've had my share of shin/leg/thigh bruises. But when I've taken a fluky shot there really hard, it did make it harder to train well the rest of that day and the next, so I like to avoid that kind of thing if possible.

Two, like Stacy's arm pads, they don't remove all the sting by a long shot. It still hurts if I smack it hard enough with my hand, which I like, because there's no chance I'll not notice something. So for me this is the best option, because I can still feel pain but I won't get a low-grade injury that keeps me from training at my best.

Third, the knees are pretty vulnerable, so having knee protection is a pretty good idea, IMO. If you take a waster tip skating across your kneecap, the result can be injury. The riot gear I have gives great knee protection, but doesn't strap down in a way that noticeably limits my mobility.

I keep hoping I'll find good motocross gloves, but they all have protection that seems more cosmetic than functional, at least the ones I've looked at. I also got a pair of riot gloves, but they were the same. So light lacrosse gloves (I use Shock Doctor) with a few added plates and pads has been the best solution for me. I no longer get the fingernail trauma Stacy mentions unless I were to do something stupid like stick my finger out while I'm cutting--in which case I would kind of deserve it.

Jason

[Brian Hunt]

Brian Hunt makes a great helmet especially geared for historical fencing.

Hey Jaron,

Thanks for plug. I have worked some kinks out of my ability to form platic and that has sped up a lot. I just need to find a way to speed up the grills.

I am currently slogging through my back orders and trying to get them filled as quick as I build helmets. After that I hope to find better and better ways to speed up production without sacrificing quality.

Brian Hunt.

ARMA Senior Researcher