What is the source of "Was sehrt, das Lehrt"?

[Benjamin Smith]

I have been searching for who actually said this for the last half hour without result. So I decided to ask for help. I actually found someone with a citation on it, but no source in the citation.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

I have been searching for who actually said this for the last half hour without result. So I decided to ask for help. I actually found someone with a citation on it, but no source in the citation.

I believe it was Lichtenauer, or is at least attributed to him. Doesn't really matter, though. It's good advice regardless.

-B.

[Dylan Asbury]

I THINK...I'm not certain at all...but i saw something similar written by Sigmund Ringeck...hope that helps

[Ken McKenzie]

I (and probably many others) first came across that phrase on page 118 of J. Christoph Amberger's excellent book The Secret History of the Sword. The chapter the quote is located in is an English translation by Dr Ann Martin of a passage from Josef and Kufahl Schmied-Kowarzik's Fechtbuchlein published in 1894, but I'd say the phrase was in use long before that. I hope that helps.

[Benjamin Smith]

I bring it up simply because it's a quote that explains a commonly stated teaching philosophy and I feel I ought to be sure of the location and period correctness of anything I share. I mean if we can't find the phrase in any other earlier work then we need to locate it where it appears, near the turn of the 20th century period, and that it would make it a modern teaching philosophy.

The prevalence of this quote throughout the web, without citations, and attributing it to renaissance fencers is a classic example of how little people will research the subjects they base their ideas off of, and how careful we should be of our source material.

Having said that, I do know of variants on it and similar themes from older material, and I'm confident the root concept was part of their discipline.

[Brent Lambell]

Benjamin, I think you point out something awfully important. As an historian in training, I have learned to become very careful about citing my sources and being aware of associated pitfalls. I feel ARMA members pride ourselves on being warriors as well as scholars and knowing the source of any teachings is paramount to this. We are a cut above the rest and in my opinion a lot of that is due to solid research in addition to martial aptitude.

[Michael Olsen]

I spoke briefly to Mr. Amberger about this portion of his book, and his response was intriguing.

The quote in question is known as a Sprichwort or saying and is basically a proverb or idiom - something like "A rolling stone gathers no moss", "Keep your nose to the grindstone", or "A house divided against itself cannot stand". He said he had never heard of it until he ran across it in the Fechtbüchlein, but that the word sehrt is old and no longer used in German.

It seems it is likely that the quote is more or less an old German saying.

[Joel Norman]

It's interesting the assumed meaning that gets touted alot for this phrase. I showed it to a German professor (native speaker), who told me that the meaning is not so much 'what hurts, teaches' but rather 'what exerts, teaches.' The prof put it as 'if you are sweaty, then you've learned something.'
Maybe the word sehrt is too archaic for a modern german person to recognize, but maybe she's right and we should be careful about misusing the phrase. I'm certainly not the expert who would know.

[Michael Olsen]

It's interesting the assumed meaning that gets touted alot for this phrase. I showed it to a German professor (native speaker), who told me that the meaning is not so much 'what hurts, teaches' but rather 'what exerts, teaches.' The prof put it as 'if you are sweaty, then you've learned something.'
Maybe the word sehrt is too archaic for a modern german person to recognize, but maybe she's right and we should be careful about misusing the phrase. I'm certainly not the expert who would know.

Evidently, the word fell out of use in modern German. It's only survived, according to Mr. Amberger, in the word "unversehrt", which translates to unhurt, undamaged, or untouched. A number of dictionaries confirm this.

I wonder if the word "sehrt" survived only in particular dialects, as I have yet to see a German dictionary that includes it?

Should your Professor be correct as well (which is entirely possible with some of the old German words), it would certainly add to the meaning of the phrase! It might be worthwhile to ask for a more in depth explanation of how she arrived at that translation.

Best,

Michael