Duplieren

[Derek Shannon]

Is the duplieren technique supposed to result in a strong strike, or is it more of a slice to the face? I can't see how to get any power behind it so I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or if that's the way it should work. I'm primarily using Lindholm & Svard's Ringeck book for reference at the moment.

Thanks,
Derek

[Richard Strey]

You can deliver the damage with either a cut (Hau), a thrust (Stich) or a slice (Schnitt). This goes for all the techniques/devices, by the way. Any one of them can be completed with either of the three wounders (Wunder).
If you go for the cut, the power comes a) from the primary cut, which you don't stop, but redirect and b) from the levering action on the hilt and pommel.

[Jaron Bernstein]

You can deliver the damage with either a cut (Hau), a thrust (Stich) or a slice (Schnitt). This goes for all the techniques/devices, by the way. Any one of them can be completed with either of the three wounders (Wunder).

Wouldn't that be more of a mutieren (mutating) where you start it off as a cut and mutate it into thrust during the bind? Absolutely right of course about being able to turn one into the other. In addition you can always collapse the range and try the various hende trucken or pommel wrenches for another option. I also like the idea of using the power of the primary cut to keep the initiative as you change into your next item (whatever it is).
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"If you go for the cut, the power comes a) from the primary cut, which you don't stop, but redirect and b) from the levering action on the hilt and pommel."

That sounds like duplieren.

[Derek Shannon]

Thanks for the clarification. Thinking of it as a redirection of the primary cut seems to make more sense. I was treating it as a separate action starting from the bind. Now to go try it out again...

[Shane Smith]

As I perform it, the cut is bounced/sprung "kind of" off of the bind and into the side of the guys head. It can be pretty strongly done. My problem though is I must premiditate to pull it off in sparring. Most good technique happens in the moment. This one, I have to seek the other guys sword to land far enough off his shoulder to make it happen. I'm not thrilled with that.

[Brent Lambell]

Derek, the way I have interpreted and performed the duplieren, I get a something between a weak hau and strong schnitt. I know, its an ambiguous answer, but there is that satisfying sound of a solid hit to the helmet most of the time I drill it. Maybe it would involve a hit to the head followed by a schnitt. I have found that a committed traverse step helps me generate some power for the technique. I have also really only used Lindholm's Ringeck interpretation but I like to think we have a handle on it here.

However, much like Shane said, I have not performed it to my satisfaction in free play, although I continue to try. One day...one day...

[Matt Bryant]

I agree with Brent. But times that I have been able to spontaneously pull dupleiren off in sparring always ended in a thrust. It would have been a strike/schnitt to the head, but we are always moving and my blade seems to always fall short. This happens to bring my point right at their face or chest so I just thrust it on in.

"Wouldn't that be more of a mutieren (mutating) where you start it off as a cut and mutate it into thrust during the bind?"

Jaron, I don't take it as such. Here is my take: If you're in bind and the opponent goes hard and pushes your sword offline, you double. So, on the right side, doubling is popping your left hand under your right forearm in order to bring your blade to bear on the opponent. Mutating happens when they are soft in the bind (maybe trying to lift off and cut elsewhere) and you flip your blade over theirs to trap their blade and stab them.

Which of the Drei Wunder you use at this point doesn't seem as important to me as the preconditioned reaction of bringing your weapon to bear on their body based on whether they are hard or soft. Ain't nuttin but a Foolin thang.


I get this from both Ringeck and Goliath. Underlined bits point out my argument for "opponent hard=you double" and "opponent soft=you mutate." Italicized bits support your argument that doubling entails a strike with the edge.

Ringeck:
"The Duplieren
If you strike a Zornhau or another Oberhau and he displaces this with strength then indes thrust the pommel of your sword, using your left hand, under your right arm. With hands crossed strike behind his blade, between his blade and his body, across the face. Or strike him on the head."

"Note the Mutieren
Mutate like so; if you bind his sword with an Oberhau or another technique, wind your short edge at his sword, and move up with the arms and hang the blade of your sword over his sword and thrust him in the lower opening."

Goliath:
"How you shall drive the Doubling to both sides
Mark when he strikes high to you from his right shoulder, then also strike similarly strong and high from your right to his head. If he displaces and stays strong on the sword, then drive on indes with your arms and thrust your sword's pommel under your right arm with your left hand, and with crossed arms strike the long edge behind his sword's blade onto his head."

"How one shall drive mutating to both sides
when you have struck him strongly high to the head from your right shoulder, if he displaces and is weak on the sword, then wind the short edge on his sword to your left side and, driving on with your arms, drive you sword's blade high over his sword and stab his lower opening."

[Randall Pleasant]

Goliath:
If he displaces and stays strong on the sword, then drive on indes with your arms and thrust your sword's pommel under your right arm with your left hand, and with crossed arms strike the long edge behind his sword's blade onto his head."

Doubling is an act of going weak against a strong bind. Once you double it is his blade, binding with strenght, that pulls your blade into contact with his face or neck. If he is very strong in the bind he might well cut himself with your blade. In any case the doubling action has to be followed up with a slicking attack.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I agree with Brent. But times that I have been able to spontaneously pull dupleiren off in sparring always ended in a thrust. It would have been a strike/schnitt to the head, but we are always moving and my blade seems to always fall short. This happens to bring my point right at their face or chest so I just thrust it on in.

"Wouldn't that be more of a mutieren (mutating) where you start it off as a cut and mutate it into thrust during the bind?"

Jaron, I don't take it as such. Here is my take: If you're in bind and the opponent goes hard and pushes your sword offline, you double. So, on the right side, doubling is popping your left hand under your right forearm in order to bring your blade to bear on the opponent. Mutating happens when they are soft in the bind (maybe trying to lift off and cut elsewhere) and you flip your blade over theirs to trap their blade and stab them.

Which of the Drei Wunder you use at this point doesn't seem as important to me as the preconditioned reaction of bringing your weapon to bear on their body based on whether they are hard or soft. Ain't nuttin but a Foolin thang.


I get this from both Ringeck and Goliath. Underlined bits point out my argument for "opponent hard=you double" and "opponent soft=you mutate." Italicized bits support your argument that doubling entails a strike with the edge.

Ringeck:
"The Duplieren
If you strike a Zornhau or another Oberhau and he displaces this with strength then indes thrust the pommel of your sword, using your left hand, under your right arm. With hands crossed strike behind his blade, between his blade and his body, across the face. Or strike him on the head."

"Note the Mutieren
Mutate like so; if you bind his sword with an Oberhau or another technique, wind your short edge at his sword, and move up with the arms and hang the blade of your sword over his sword and thrust him in the lower opening."

Goliath:
"How you shall drive the Doubling to both sides
Mark when he strikes high to you from his right shoulder, then also strike similarly strong and high from your right to his head. If he displaces and stays strong on the sword, then drive on indes with your arms and thrust your sword's pommel under your right arm with your left hand, and with crossed arms strike the long edge behind his sword's blade onto his head."

"How one shall drive mutating to both sides
when you have struck him strongly high to the head from your right shoulder, if he displaces and is weak on the sword, then wind the short edge on his sword to your left side and, driving on with your arms, drive you sword's blade high over his sword and stab his lower opening."

That makes sense I certainly agree with it. I am just currently unaware of a source where mutieren does not lead to a thrust or duplieren doesn't lead to a cut.

[Randall Pleasant]

I am just currently unaware of a source where mutieren does not lead to a thrust or duplieren doesn't lead to a cut.

I agree. To be successful a Duplieren must to lead to a cut since you are going weak against the adversary's strong bind. If your long edge does not contact him then the execution of the technique has failed. When your edge fails to hit the adversary then he, being strong in the bind, simply pushes your blade to the outside of his blade. Anything you do pass that point is another action and technique from the Duplieren.

[Matt Bryant]

I am just currently unaware of a source where mutieren does not lead to a thrust or duplieren doesn't lead to a cut.

I agree. To be successful a Duplieren must to lead to a cut since you are going weak against the adversary's strong bind. If your long edge does not contact him then the execution of the technique has failed. When your edge fails to hit the adversary then he, being strong in the bind, simply pushes your blade to the outside of his blade. Anything you do pass that point is another action and technique from the Duplieren.

This makes sense. So basically, I was doubling to line up my point and then thrusting in. Its a bit of a semantics argument, I know. I think on the whole it is more important to focus on the concept.

[Randall Pleasant]

I am just currently unaware of a source where mutieren does not lead to a thrust or duplieren doesn't lead to a cut.

I agree. To be successful a Duplieren must to lead to a cut since you are going weak against the adversary's strong bind. If your long edge does not contact him then the execution of the technique has failed. When your edge fails to hit the adversary then he, being strong in the bind, simply pushes your blade to the outside of his blade. Anything you do pass that point is another action and technique from the Duplieren.

This makes sense. So basically, I was doubling to line up my point and then thrusting in. Its a bit of a semantics argument, I know. I think on the whole it is more important to focus on the concept.

Matt

I like how your followup thrust is part of one fluid motion. If your duplieren hits then the thrust makes a hard slice. If your duplieren fails then the thrust is a quick followup. Nice!

[Shane Smith]

Update;

The images in the otherwise excellent translation/interpretation I'm using as a secondary resource imply that you are pushing his sword to his right when you duplieren agaist him although the text from the manual states that he is binding you strongly. That implies that there is no way I am pushing him back to his right...quite the opposite.

I and the VAB group worked on an alternate interpretation that involves a zorn against zorn (just as the text says) that is on target to strike the body in either case.

Indes from the brief crossing of swords, we thrust the left pommel under the arm and the result is a frightfully fast and efficient diagonal cut to the other guys face or head on the right. It's kind of like a sheitel in feel but the crossed hands displace him further and you bounce right into his head behind his sword. It works great! Now, rather or not that is exactly what Ringeck had in mind I can't say, but I can say that it is efficient and readily done when striking to the man and not the weapon. I like that...