Short-edge cuts in pre 14th century iconography.

[Corey Roberts]

Although this period is earlier than what ARMA typically deals with, and there are few or no sources for this period. I am wondering if anybody can locate a clear depiction of short edge cuts being delivered with a single handed weapon accompanied by a shield, in iconography from the pre-renaissance period. As our earliest source for single sword, along with buckler/shield, MS I;33 is full of short-edge cutting actions, I see no reason to assume that the earlier period did not use them as well. Although I have currently yet to find any clear depictions of such an action in earlier artwork.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Although this period is earlier than what ARMA typically deals with, and there are few or no sources for this period. I am wondering if anybody can locate a clear depiction of short edge cuts being delivered with a single handed weapon accompanied by a shield, in iconography from the pre-renaissance period. As our earliest source for single sword, along with buckler/shield, MS I;33 is full of short-edge cutting actions, I see no reason to assume that the earlier period did not use them as well. Although I have currently yet to find any clear depictions of such an action in earlier artwork.

I can't speak for the iconographic evidence, but look at the swords in use at the time. The Peterson type Viking/Migration swords were two edged cutting oriented blades. That suggests to me similar utility to the the I:33 arming swords. This contrasts with Seax type blades which might have more of a messer type usage. This is all speculation based on blade type, but why would you design a blade a certain way if not to optimize its utility?

[Jonathan Newhall]

Does it have a second edge? If the answer is yes, I'd bet money on the fact that it was used to cut.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Does it have a second edge? If the answer is yes, I'd bet money on the fact that it was used to cut.

Compare this:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... g-knud.htm

and this:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... hersir.htm

two edged viking era swords.

This single edge viking era sword:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... photos.htm

to this later messer:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... soldat.htm

To this later crusader era sword:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... lar-xa.htm

To a more thrust oriented (look at the blade taper) anti-plate armor bastard sword:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... er-xva.htm

To this cutting war sword:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... -xiiia.htm

[Henri de La Garde]

Hi Corey.

I would second what others here have said, the short edge is there by design for a reason.

However, I feel you are unlikely to ever find a piece of pre-13th century iconography outside I.33 which is unarguably a short-edge cutting action. Artistic conventions, the fact that it is a mere snapshot in time, and the lack of a clear progression of movement and accompanying text in a piece of artwork not part of a fight manual will make strong conclusions very difficult.

Further, I would suggest that short edge cuts would be even rarer in period artwork due to the subject matter; most High Middle Ages figures are shown in armour, and short edge cuts do not seem to me to be suitably employed against armour.

If you do find something, let me know!

In a post script, has anyone done alot of single-handed short edge cuts on test-cutting targets other than pet bottles (bamboo, rolled straw mats, gambeson, even mail)? I'd love to know your results.

[Jonathan Newhall]

A lot of the short edge cuts in iconography are also going to be mistaken for thrusts, or thrusts for short edge cuts, in terms of shield fighting. They do look rather similar in the somewhat stylized art style of the middle ages.