the messer

[nathan featherstone]

hello all.
im not very familiar with the messer but im heavily involved in viking combat and i can see huge similarities between the use of a seax and a messer. so in other words i want to train with the messer. now any information on this would be great. i have some of talhoffers work and im going to base my training on his messer work. my main areas i need help in are these.
general use of the messer.
use of the messer against/with a shield
use of 2 messers at once
use of messer against other weapons,
and most importantly solo drills that i can do alone i have done some but i want advice from someone more experienced than me.
also its use against other weapons is paramount as it i come up against many other weapons and i want to know how it would actually be used against them.
thanks for your time.
regards
nathan

[Sal Bertucci]

Is there any historical precident for using two messers?

[nathan featherstone]

well thats what i was wondering as its use as a primary weapon leaves you very exposed in battle conditions so i wanted to know has anyone heard of or seen the use of two anywhere?

[Sal Bertucci]

I've heard of using a "case of falchions", but that was for prizing I believe, and well after the time period you're looking at.

[Stacy Clifford]

Leckeuckner (messer) and Joachim Meyer (dussack) are probably going to be your best sources for that type of weapon. Sadly very few of the manuals spend much time on combat between different weapons, they focus mainly on like vs. like and leave you to figure out like vs. unlike for yourself aside from a few handy tips mostly. Messer/dussack is in the same boat, though you'll find a few odd plates here and there in places like Talhoffer and Gladiatoria showing messer & buckler. This one's from Gladiatoria, still the only place I've ever seen shields like that:



Search the forums here and you'll find plenty of general advice on unlike weapon combat (sword vs. spear, etc.) which you can apply to the messer with a little imagination and practice. Figuring it out is just part of the fun.

[Greg Coffman]

In battle you would use a messer with a buckler or shield. Using two swords of any kind was always an anomaly in Europe and would never see the battlefield.

[Sal Bertucci]

I want a sheild like that ...so many toys...so little time!

[Greg Coffman]

I believe they are a Hungarian/Eastern Europe style of shield. I made one out of a pizza dish once that I roller over my arm. But it wasn't strong enough to stand up to padded weapons.

[steve hick]

snip

Sadly very few of the manuals spend much time on combat between different weapons, they focus mainly on like vs. like and leave you to figure out like vs. unlike for yourself aside from a few handy tips mostly. snip

Its different in Iberia. We have some plays of weapons against different weapons, e.g. two handed swords against polearms and one or two shieldmen -- and not just two handed swords, but that's mostly what we've translated so far. The Iberians tended to provide plays with the weapons in situational contexts --narrow passage ways, rooms, defending someone, etc. as well, what to do if you meet someone, even after you take off your hat!

And not just the few "common fencing" stuff, but even in the days of la verdadera destreza. Although we've not located it yet, Baron Leguina has in his bibliography a refernce to a manual specifically addressing plays "espada sola contra otra espada y los términos necesarios para la espada; contra ella y la daga, y espada y broquel, montante, pica, chuzo y alabarda y todas las demás armas enastadas: y las otras dos de los términos de espada y daga, española y italiana y oposición que se hazen la una y la otra." .... sword alone against another, and those technique need against it, and it with a dagger, sword and buckler, great sword, pike, pick (chuzo), halberd and other pole arms, and techniques for the sword and dagger, and the (fight) between a spaniard and Italian and one does against the other..." (roughly).

A little late for you, but, interesting that in the 17th century, the Iberians could still be worried about encounter those kinds of weapons. You know, they weren't as monolithic as all that.

Steve

[Jonathan Newhall]

In battle you would use a messer with a buckler or shield. Using two swords of any kind was always an anomaly in Europe and would never see the battlefield.

I wouldn't say never, there were treatises on things such as using two rapiers simultaneously whether for duelling or other combat, but it was definitely a very rare thing to see two of the same weapon being wielded by the same combatant.

[nathan featherstone]

just to let everyone know i have no reall period limit here with this project. my main focus is to devise a long knife system that is a mix of whats available already from european sources so all info on this is great no matter what the period.
its not to devise a new system as such but to use whats there to better myself and think of one that one day i can teach and use against a variety of weapons.

[Keith Culbertson]

You might try to find the book "The Cutting Edge" by Barry Malloy (and lots of other contributors, including John Clements) which has some sections on early (mostly Bronze Age) long knife/short sword experimental archaeology research. Lots of interesting stuff in there, including a bit on archery and chariots too.

have fun

[nathan featherstone]

i will try get hold of that book then i have a big interest in bronze combat with short swords.
does anyone have any info on roman use of the short sword or gladiatorial use as they were the masters of it really.
also does anyone have links to online manuals i have mairs work and talhoffers but if anyone has any others they could send me i would appericate it greatly.
thank you for all the work. im using this material to write up my own training manual thats as simple as i can make it. while including as much information i can bring as well as information and moves from historical manuals.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

In battle you would use a messer with a buckler or shield. Using two swords of any kind was always an anomaly in Europe and would never see the battlefield.

I wouldn't say never, there were treatises on things such as using two rapiers simultaneously whether for duelling or other combat, but it was definitely a very rare thing to see two of the same weapon being wielded by the same combatant.

There were treatises on two-sword combat, but as far as I know they only treat of its use in single combat--i.e. gentlemanly duels as opposed to war. Giacomo di Grassi--one of the most complete sources for a historical two-sword style--even stated (rather explicitly) that the two-sword style was not used in war, and I'm very, very inclined to believe him after I've experienced just how hard it is to make sense of the movements needed to fight effectively with a sword in each hand. Another important factor in the style's lack of utility in war is that it doesn't appear to have any provisions for getting around armor, and indeed it seems like a colossal waste of time against armor when wielding one sword in two hands (whether "normally" or half-sworded) would give the wielder far more power and control for stabbing through the gaps and weak points in armor.

BTW, any mentions of the dimachaeri (two-sword) gladiators in Roman sources are a red herring. I haven't seen any evidence that their style saw any use outside the gladiatorial arena, and anyway what sane Roman legionary would have wanted to wield two swords when his shield was so necessary for protecting not only himself but also the man next to him?

[Jonathan Newhall]

Hm, you do raise a good point, though I'm sure it was tried by somebody at SOME point if that was their style of choice and they were going to war.

No direct evidence of course, but it makes logical sense that a man who, for instance, learned to duel properly with two swords would thereafter favor two swords in most instances just as a man who learned to duel with a pollaxe would be particularly in favor of using the pollaxe in any other situation that required combat.

Though perhaps they learned quite quickly that two swords was not a particularly good idea on the battlefield, as well, if this did occur. Regardless of whether or not it occured in battle, it was certainly rare even outside of battle as previously stated.