the messer

[nathan featherstone]

does anyone know of any material on short sword fighting before or after the medieval period i could look at? im attempting the lengthy process of translating mairs dusack work but i want a more broad input for this manual. i was really looking towards roman and bronze ages sources for short sword material does anyone know of any????????


and on the issue of two swords i have seen someone skilled with them taking on 8 people in a shield formation with spears as well and winning so its down to skill and preference. but for later fully armoured combat in plate they would be no real use.

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm calling that one!

1 vs. 8 seems incredulous to me. You said that the 8 were in a sheild and spear formation? What type of formation? What length spears? what type of spears? What type of sheilds? Did they stay in formation? Have the 8 used spears before? Sheilds? Both? What type of swords did they use? Was this boffer fighting? Did a touch imply dismembership/death, or was a killing blow to the torso or head needed for that?

I'm sorry that I seem so negative, but unless it is under very specific circumstances I'm highly dubious of any one person besting more than three people. I've fought multiple opponents, and it isn't not a piece of cake.

Due to the coordination involved it is much more difficult to have proper edge alignment when wielding 2 swords. A shield provides a superior defense to any sword, and a spear has a far superior reach, and is easier to gain proficiency in.

I would be interesting in how this event played out. So if you could fill me in that would be great.

[nathan featherstone]

gladly happy someone showed so much interest.
ok lets deal with this in order i know seems impossible but let me explain.
yes 8 overall. 2 spears and 6 shield with a mix of axes and swords and short swords.
formation was a solid viking style shield wall with spears on each flank.
both spears being 6-7 feet in length.
swords were all blunted steel as were the other weapons.
no not boffer fighting.
a killing blow was torso and back head and upper legs i.e inner thighs and the group of arteries there being the reason for that so is a fair target.
first off no not a piece of cake i have only seen it once and the guy who did it is one of the best swordsmen i know. and is far better with short swords than anything else.
also the other fighters had at least 2 years of experience minimum. not saying they were skilled just they knew what they were doing.
now down to how he did it
i will stress im not making this up or using it to say my way of doing things is better than anyone else. i think sword and shield is king look at the romans.
anyway i think it was mainly due to surprise and the lack of knowledge of what he could do.
basically he jumped into the dead center at a run using the two swords inverted as hooks and pried the center two men apart and he got inside.
once past he used both swords to stab these men from behind he then turned and was able to kill the other shields with ease as they were in a tight formation unable to turn quickly. the spears by this stage were on him but singly they are no challenge as all you need to do is get past the point and your done.
now very special situation that.
i hope that clears that up for you sal?
so can we get back to my research.
where two swords ever used in Europe then? and if so any accounts of it? they seem popular in Asia eg escrima.
and any info on the short sword that i do not have? i have no clue on Renaissance short swords can anyone help?

[Gene Tausk]

".....they are no challenge as all you need to do is get past the point and your done. "


Uhhhhhhh......yeah.....OK.

Love to sit and chat with you for a while longer, but I have an appointment back on Earth that is going to demand my time.

No more postings on this s*** will be tolerated. Unless you have a video or some other hard evidence of this so-called superbattle, keep it off of our forums.

As for the above statement regarding spears, go fight a person trained to use one before making such a ridiculous claim. I've been whacked by the butt of a spear, and done a few myself, to know that getting past the point is great and certainly your first goal, but it is far from being the end of the story. And "getting past the point" is not that easy in the first place.

As for your other question, AFAIK, except for gladiators, two-sword swordsmanship was not advocated or used by the manuals. There is a reason for this. Try wielding two longswords at once, or two arming swords for that matter. They are a little more difficult than knives or short-bladed weapons.

[Stacy Clifford]

I've posted this more than a few times before, but Di Grassi is about the only master who gives any sort of detailed instruction on using two swords (and even then it's a short section), they are both primarily thrusting weapons, and he flat out tells you that you'd better be equally good with both hands or you shouldn't even try to fight this way. He also says they are used in the schools and the lists, but not in the wars.

As for the spear, Gene is right. A spear is not only dangerous at the pointy end, it is a staff with a knife attached and is fully capable of everything a staff can do, which is to break lots of bones and put up a pretty stout defense. It may be less versatile in tight formation, but the old warriors were well aware of that and had ways to deal with it, and getting past the point can be very difficult against someone skilled at maneuvering it. There's a good reason the spear was a primary weapon in every army in history for thousands of years - it was effective.

[Steven Reich]

I've posted this more than a few times before, but Di Grassi is about the only master who gives any sort of detailed instruction on using two swords (and even then it's a short section), they are both primarily thrusting weapons, and he flat out tells you that you'd better be equally good with both hands or you shouldn't even try to fight this way. He also says they are used in the schools and the lists, but not in the wars.

Actually, Manciolino, Marozzo, Agrippa, Altoni, and Docciolino all give instructions on using two swords. However, that shouldn't lead anyone to believe that any of the above authors felt that this was a primary combination--it clearly wasn't. Additionally, I have yet to see anyone that can do this to any degree of proficiency beyond introductory study and curiosity. As you said, this requires that someone using two swords can use a sword equally well in either hand (and that also assumes actual proficiency in each hand--equally well is not the same as equally badly). Additionally, these masters all present these weapons (and pretty much most of their material) as being for one-on-one judicial duels, not the battlefield.

Personally, I'd take pretty much any polearm--excepting a pike--against someone with two swords. To be blunt, the two-weapon anecdote presented above seems to be so much hooey.

Steve

[nathan featherstone]

ok let me clear this up i have obviously upset people from this.
for that i sorry as i tried to say this was a very special situation.
as for the spear im not arguing with anyone yes its effective yes its a great weapon. i apologize for my statement i wont mention stuff like that again on this forum again then.

anyway i have no video of this part of the battle as everyone i know from it was fighting in it and it happened it a few quick moments.

ok now if everyone has not been to offended or upset by what i said can we please continue with this. im trying to do research here and most people here are far more experienced than i am in combat.

now ok in a european context two short swords were never used as a primary choice in warfare. understandable.

now PLEASE can we return to discussing how to use the short sword so i can write up this manual. i dont want to upset anyone or defend myself for things i have witnessed. i apologize again sincerly if i upset anyone.
now can you help me at all with my research???
i dont want to be branded as a fool for saying a silly offhand comment if anyone wants to discuss my ideas then please pm me and we can talk otherwise i would like to get back to the topic at hand.
thank you and again sorry

[Stacy Clifford]

Actually, Manciolino, Marozzo, Agrippa, Altoni, and Docciolino all give instructions on using two swords.

I mentioned "detailed" instruction on purpose, because I do realize that two swords is mentioned in some other manuals. Upon a quick examination of Marozzo it appears he might actually include a couple of whole pages on it (if I'm reading the Italian right), in which case I stand corrected, but I know Manciolino only includes a couple of paragraphs and I only see one plate on it in what I can find of Agrippa. I can't say on the other two, but my point was that two swords rarely gets much more than a shout-out of "hey, by the way, some people do this too." Di Grassi actually gives it full equal treatment with his other weapons.

[Stacy Clifford]

does anyone know of any material on short sword fighting before or after the medieval period i could look at? im attempting the lengthy process of translating mairs dusack work but i want a more broad input for this manual. i was really looking towards roman and bronze ages sources for short sword material does anyone know of any????????

One of the reasons we start our studies with the Medieval period is because before that there aren't any individual instruction manuals that we know of. There are well known treatises on military tactics and theory, but written individual combat instruction appears to be a Medieval invention right now unless something else turns up. Messer and dussack were the "short swords" of choice during most of the period we study and you can find plenty about them, and you can certainly adapt techniques from the longer single/side sword as well. After the Renaissance I don't know what would exist if anything on short swords of any kind, they weren't a favored weapon by then.

[Steven Reich]

Actually, Manciolino, Marozzo, Agrippa, Altoni, and Docciolino all give instructions on using two swords.

I mentioned "detailed" instruction on purpose, because I do realize that two swords is mentioned in some other manuals. Upon a quick examination of Marozzo it appears he might actually include a couple of whole pages on it (if I'm reading the Italian right), in which case I stand corrected, but I know Manciolino only includes a couple of paragraphs and I only see one plate on it in what I can find of Agrippa. I can't say on the other two, but my point was that two swords rarely gets much more than a shout-out of "hey, by the way, some people do this too." Di Grassi actually gives it full equal treatment with his other weapons.

Marozzo, Manciolino, and Docciolini all give it pretty good coverage. Manciolino actually spends more time on it than he does on sword alone, as does Marozzo. That is, there is an amount of material in Marozzo and Manciolino comparable that given to other combinations--excepting sword and buckler. Docciolini gives it about as much coverage as he gives to sword and buckler, sword and targa, or sword and rotella. That said, it clearly wasn't a "primary" system in the way that sword and shield (of whatever type) or sword and dagger or sword and cape was for any of these masters (or really, any master).

Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

Strange, I would have to see Manciolino again, but I could swear I remember looking at it and only finding less than a page on two swords. I know where to find some of these in Italian, but not necessarily translated into English. Do you have any links? I know Manciolino has been translated, I just can't find it right now. If we continue this it should be moved to a new thread so we can keep this one focused on short sword as Mr. Featherstone requested.

[nathan featherstone]

thank you stacy yes this discussion opened up a whole can of worms i wasnt expecting.
now most importantly as was requested by not just me any links???
from the earlier mentioned fight masters and any others people know of?
also i accept that there is no real info on earlier fighting as most i have found are stories sagas carvings pictures and so on.
so does anyone know any more recent ones then
and again any decent links anyone can send me???
thank you all for your help.

[Stacy Clifford]

OK, here's a link to a long thread on two-sword fighting from a while back:

http://www.thearma.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22432

And here is the link to that translation of Manciolino's two swords I had seen before:

http://www.hemac.org/modules.php?name=C ... age&pid=15

A little longer than I remember, but still not a lot of coverage.

thank you stacy yes this discussion opened up a whole can of worms i wasnt expecting.

Don't worry, that happens ALL the time on here, every topic has a hundred tangents to explore.

[Steven Reich]

Unfortunately, if you want to learn historic two-sword techniques, you will need to read more than one source; in addition, understanding the material with the two-sword techniques necessitates that you are familiar with the rest of the treatise. For example, Manciolino and Marozzo don't have a lot on two-sword technique, but if you are familiar with the rest of their works, you can actually see quite a bit of information. However, if you aren't familiar with their works, then the two-swords material is pretty much only useful as two short paired forms.

More problematic for most people will be the fact that pretty much all of the two-sword material is in Italian treatises, of which only a few are partially translated, and none of the translations are really completely reliable. Even the 1594 translation of Di Grassi not particularly good--it has some (significant) errors and there are many places where the English really fails to fully convey what is given in the Italian text.

Steve

[steve hick]

Godinho has 20 pages devoted to 2 swords, as with the Bolognese, it builds upon thorough knowledge of espada solo. From LHermite, we know that the Iberian school in general presented 2 swords as advanced methods that played in constrained circumstances as they did the montante. Unfortunately, so far we don't have many other sources (so far).

Steve