Unusual Weapons in the Western Martial Arts.

[Grant Hall]

Eastern Martial Arts are full of weird weapons many derived from farm tools and other more exotic places. How effective any of these are I'm not sure.

I am however interested in any weird and unusal weapons from the West. I seem to recall some lethal looking Dueling Shields with massive blades on them. But what about chain weapons, or unusual polearms. Do these weapons crop up in Western Arts aswell or are they confined purely to the east?

Any and all unusal weapons would be interesting to see. Especially if they appear in manuals, but that is not necesary.

Cheers!

[Randall Pleasant]

See the following works of Pauls Mair:

http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570 ... 6&seite=49

http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00007894/images/

[Jason Taylor]

Somewhere on myarmoury there's a reference to a kind of German (I think it was) throwing star, basically two crossed metal rods welded at the center and sharpened on the tips....It wasn't referenced as a weapon of war, though, but more as a vermin-hunting tool, IIRC.

[Stacy Clifford]

Talhoffer features those dueling shields prominently, and if you search around the forum somebody posted a link a while back to some video of folks actually practicing with them. There's also a judicial duel in there with a woman using a rock in a veil, and P.H. Mair describes fighting with serrated (!) sickles and even scythes (!!!). You've probably seen some of the different varieties of "sword catcher" and "sword breaker" daggers out there. Polearms apparently came in just about every variety under the sun if you research them a little bit. Our ancestors were plenty creative in the experimental department.

[John Farthing]

I am currently doing some research in this area (including several reconstructions and experiments using the tenets of experimental archæology).

While Hans Talhoffer (among others) does offer us a glimpse at many seemingly unique weapons, many had been in use since antiquity! Their inclusion in Renaissance era fight literature is likely both a testament to their effectiveness, as well as, evidence of the humanist mentality which borrowed heavily from earlier sources.

Among weapons I have reconstructed and tested are the fustibal(us), a type of staff-sling shown to us in Talhoffer but, highly documented as having been used much earlier! Preliminary experimentation has shown this to be an effective weapon at quite noteworthy distances and, surprisingly accurate with very little practice!

I have also done a fair amount of research into the weapon mentioned above by Mr. Taylor. It is known as a 'Wurfkreuz' (lit. 'throw cross') and is, (as Mr. Taylor rightly points out) a German invention. I have, (unlike many of the aforementioned weapons), found no evidence of this weapon prior to the fifteenth century. While this weapon may seem obscure to us today, (it is still little known to most modern researchers and historians!), it seems to have commanded some respect in it's own time. No less of a personage than Leonardo Da Vinci has written of the 'German Cross' and images of it's use in combat survive in 'Freydal'!

I have worked with the Wurfkreuz a bit myself, having had a reconstruction built for me based upon my research and an extant museum example. The weapons mentioned above (as well as several others) are the subject of some ongoing investigations I currently have underway. The eventual goal will be to compile my findings, document my research in photos, etc. and publish one or more papers on these subjects. These papers will most likely be published under the auspices of the ARMA and therefore, may or may not be publicly available. In either case, I hope that I have provided some insights to your original inquiry and further whetted any subsequent appetites which might lead you to further research.

[Ryan Marcin]

That's interesting about the Wurfkreuz. I've used something similar, but made out of wood. I learned it as an expedient survival tool for catching small to medium game.

Get two fairly straight and thick sticks of hardwood. Notch them in the center, so they fit together. Bind them into a cross with some simple lashing. Sharpen the tips. Pitch it overhead or side arm, similar to the more esoteric frisbee tosses.

If the wood is relatively dense (or the pieces large enough), you get some decent penetrating power. I've sunk one three or four inches into a flesh-analog foam.

[terry brown]

Eastern Martial Arts are full of weird weapons many derived from farm tools and other more exotic places. How effective any of these are I'm not sure.

I am however interested in any weird and unusal weapons from the West. I seem to recall some lethal looking Dueling Shields with massive blades on them. But what about chain weapons, or unusual polearms. Do these weapons crop up in Western Arts aswell or are they confined purely to the east?

Any and all unusal weapons would be interesting to see. Especially if they appear in manuals, but that is not necesary.
>
Cheers!

>
How about a 'dung fork'. IIRC this is listed by Randolp Holmes in his Academy of Armoury, 1688
>
I suppose one could argue that the dung fork was an early example of germ warfare
>
Terry

[Grant Hall]

Hey guys thanks for the posts, some really interesting things there. Who ever knew that there were ninja in Germany!

Keep em coming.. I'm off to look into these Wurfkreuz's and the weapon catching/breaking daggers

Cheers!

[Grant Hall]

Actually something I think would be interesting is making a list of Western Weapons, and their Eastern Counterparts, and vice versa.

An example would be the Western Sickle and the Eastern Kama.

Both have staffs, and spears.

Does the West have anything resembling Sais or kusari gama?

Cheers.

[Sal Bertucci]

Well the agricultuaral tool that coorelates to the tool that sais originated from would be the pitchfork.

I don't think there is an equivelent for the kusari gama. As far as I can supose, the sickle was only really used in things like dueling. Also, the kusari gama has been shown to be less effective against armor so since (I believe) armor was more prevelant in Europe then such a weapon wouldn't have been successful enough to br worth mentioning.

[Samuel Bena]

Speaking of Mair and esoteric weapons ... what about this plate ?



Apparently its one of the mounted fighting techniques. However I am quite puzzled by the "rope" that one rider uses offensively to put the other one out of the saddle... Could it mayhap be something similar to the classic nomadic "lasso technique" as used by turks, tartars etc

For comparison here is a 16th century Ottoman-Turkish Miniature depicting the Mohacs battle. It shows a Turk (Akinci or Sipahi) using a lasso to dismount a Hungarian man-at-arms:



Cheers

P.S: Hope its not too off topic and apologies for the somewhat bigger size of the first pic

[Sal Bertucci]

I can't translate that but it could be either. There is definitely some kind of knot at the far end of the rope. It could be a slip knot for a lasso, or a binding knot to attach it to a metal implement.

[Grant Hall]

That's pretty cool, perhaps it some sort of grapple designed to lodge in armor?

I hope someone can translate.

Cheers.

[Andrew Peoples]

While I'm not sure what category it falls into, there is this strange looking weapon

It seems to be a mix between a bill and a falchion.

[steve hick]

Three headed, two handed flail from Spain, handle about 3 feet, chain more, there's even a lesson on it from Mendoza.
Steve