Questions about buying a Rapier

[Alexander Barnett]

I've been interested in training for the rapier ever since I watched a video of a swordsmen armed with a rapier and dagger free spar another armed with a longsword.

I've hit a bit of a road block though

Studying the great masters and constant drills and spars are a must but I don't have a rapier to train with.

Another RMA group , specifically the Academy of Historic Fencing in Londong, reccomends a CAS Hanwei practical rapier which costs about 180.

They seem good enough but I've noticed a severe lack of martial intent in alot of their sparring videos and the rapiers in their fencing videos also seem overly wobbily which I've heard is common in Hanwei rapiers.

I know the general opinion here on Arma on sword purchases is to wait until one can buy a sword that's worth the cost (ie an Albion) but considering how expensive some rapiers and how cheap this one is I was wondering what people think?

What do you guys train with for the rapier and what do you consider a good weapon to train with on a student's budget?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

So far, we really don't care for anything out there commercially made to use for practice. We are excited about Albion's version as well.

If you have a Farm and Fleet or other type of store, you can get these plastic electric fence posts, then just make yourself a simple hilt to go on it. This is what we use here in Wisconsin.

They work great and are very stiff. We had one of our guys make a very nice hilt out of metal tubing, it adds weight and it allows us to have complex guards and designs on it as well.

I'll try and get pics up sooner or later-good luck!- AP

[Greg Coffman]

We had one of our guys make a very nice hilt out of metal tubing, it adds weight and it allows us to have complex guards and designs on it as well.

I'll try and get pics up sooner or later-good luck!- AP

We absolutely need pics of that Aaron! I made a pair of the fiberglass rod rapiers using poles of different length in a stagger arrangement and the DFW group loves them. From the hilt to the first third of the blade there are three rods, the next third there are two rods, and the last third to the tip there is just the one rod. But I struggled with the hilt. What I ended up with is functional but very ugly. I've been thinking about making some more but didn't want to get started until I've got a better option for the hilt.

The fiberglass rods I'm talking about can be found at a hardware store like Lowes or Home Depot. They are sold to mark driveways or something and have a reflector on the top.

[Alexander Barnett]

Thanks for the reply.

That sounds pretty ideal; It'd be pretty cheap and within my know how to build.

A picture would be pretty useful.

Do you need any extra safety equipment for free sparring. ie. how safe is it to use against an opponent?

[Jonathan Hill]

The Hanwei is floppy and a bit forward balanced, but it is a good low end blade. Supposedly they have made the blade better than the ones I have used but personally I am not buying one. They are good for a students budget though. The floppiness of the Hanwei blade is actually good for ‘beginners’ in my opinion until you understand how much to bend the blade on a person without going too far. The Hanwei blade is more forgiving than a more rigid blade and it does come at a cost of not giving you the actual play of a stiffer blade, but your practice partner will thank you for it until you learn the proper control.

Of the ones I have used I prefer the Darkwood Armory ones but they will range over $500, they are better balanced and the bated blades won’t flop around like the Hanwei’s will. They do have an ‘economy’ line that will run about $250 if that is manageable for you.

I had not heard about Albion doing a Rapier but would be very interested in it.

[Greg Coffman]

From what I understand, no reproduction rapier out there right now COMES CLOSE to the stiffness that actual rapiers possessed. The reproductions just don't simulate actual rapier blades enough to accurately learn historical fencing with a rapier.

Albion has a rapier blade scheduled for their practice sword lineup, but along with the other pre-production concepts in that line, we don't know when they will be able to start cranking them out.

So for right now, the best simulators for a historical rapiers are either homemade wooden or fiberglass wasters. The pair I made cost me about $40 in parts for the two of them. Spend less and build your own.

[Steven Reich]

From what I understand, no reproduction rapier out there right now COMES CLOSE to the stiffness that actual rapiers possessed. The reproductions just don't simulate actual rapier blades enough to accurately learn historical fencing with a rapier.

Well, that's not true. You can get rapiers that are plenty stiff, but having them that stiff just isn't that critical for historical techniques.

So for right now, the best simulators for a historical rapiers are either homemade wooden or fiberglass wasters. The pair I made cost me about $40 in parts for the two of them. Spend less and build your own.

You can get great steel simulators. Why use fiberglass when there are excellent simulators available (unless it's a matter of cost)?

Here's a question, what exactly do you think you'll be able to do with a rapier stiffer than what Darkwood or A&A has (although some of the A&A rapier blades can be really stiff)? Having worked through actions and drills with an historic piece, I can tell you that there was nothing I could do with the original that I couldn't do with the simulator (for that matter, the original wasn't even as stiff as some reproductions I've held and used).

Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

Steven, I can't speak for the piece that you handled, but I've handled a few original rapiers myself and they were stiff as needles, and John Clements has handled hundreds and attests to the same. Stiffness is all about point control (not to mention penetrating the target in a real one). I've handled a number of simulators including Darkwoods and when you've got a big rubber button on the end of it, even a hard thrust against air sends the point bouncing around, let alone a parry. While technically yes, you can perform the techniques with them, it gives a totally inaccurate feel to them and makes the pinpoint aim you see in the rapier manuals (all those eyes being poked out) nearly impossible. The originals I've handled felt like laser guided missiles by comparison, brilliant works of balance and precision that made the best simulator I've ever seen pale by comparison. The level of control wasn't even close. I own a Del Tin rapier with the stiffest blade I've ever seen on a simulator (not a true replica like the beauties Hank Reinhardt owned), but with a sharp tip and no button, and it is definitely stiff enough to puncture, but its accuracy in point control still doesn't come close to the real thing. My experience definitely speaks differently than yours.

[Steven Reich]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I've handled a few originals (and yes, not antique reproductions, certified originals) and they just weren't all stiff as nails. I find that all of the techniques described in Fabris, Giganti, Capoferro, et al. work just fine with the Darkwoods I have and the A&A rapiers I've used. We've don't experience the point control problems, and find that during drilling we often have to consciously vary the target to avoid hitting our drilling partners in the same exact place (because after awhile, it gets a little uncomfortable).

Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

I should offer the caveat that the Darkwoods I handled were over five years ago, so it is possible that they are making stiffer blades now than they did in the past, and I have not handled any A&A pieces, so I can't say anything about their quality. Certainly most steel simulators I've seen were noodly to the point of being almost useless, vastly inferior to the originals in feel and handling. Wooden simulators have performed better for me and others I have trained with, though currently I use fiberglass which is passable but hardly perfect (but easier to make and better than nothing). I think our differences of experience would be impossible to hash out on a forum like this without firsthand evidence to produce, so I'll agree to leave it as a civil disagreement.

[Steven Reich]

I should offer the caveat that the Darkwoods I handled were over five years ago, so it is possible that they are making stiffer blades now than they did in the past, and I have not handled any A&A pieces, so I can't say anything about their quality. Certainly most steel simulators I've seen were noodly to the point of being almost useless, vastly inferior to the originals in feel and handling. Wooden simulators have performed better for me and others I have trained with, though currently I use fiberglass which is passable but hardly perfect (but easier to make and better than nothing). I think our differences of experience would be impossible to hash out on a forum like this without firsthand evidence to produce, so I'll agree to leave it as a civil disagreement.

Hmmm...I think that 5 years ago, Darkwood was using Del Tin blades, and some of those weren't so good compared to what they were later. However, if you're ever at an event with people who have newer Darkwood or A&A Rapiers, definitely check them out (i.e. handle them).

Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

I think you may be right about the Del Tin blades, Darkwood was a vendor at a couple of early ARMA events around 2002 and that sounds familiar. The Del Tin blade I have is probably 10 years old though (bought it second hand around 2003, so I can't be absolutely certain), and as I said it's pretty stiff compared to most, with only a small amount of tip shake, but I've also heard elsewhere what you said about some Del Tins being much more flexible. A&A has just never developed much of a following in ARMA, so I rarely encounter their work. If there are simulators out there stiff enough to perform well then I would be happy to be proven wrong, but my standards are pretty high after being spoiled on those antiques. I'll happily give any maker a fair evaluation if I can get one in my hands.

[Alexander Barnett]

thanks for the replies and the really interesting discussion.

I think I'm gonna have to put a lot of thought into the steel rapier I eventually decide to purchase.

Until then I'll keep on looking at the wooden, fiberglass, DIY, and possibly some of the cheaper steel ones just to have something to hold and practice with and eventually spar with when I gain a safe amount of control with it.