Oh God! Watch this and try not to claw your eyes out.

[Peter Goranov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lueuQu62nRQ He would do well in a movie i suppose

[CalebChow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lueuQu62nRQ He would do well in a movie i suppose

For a dance that wasn't bad at all.

With his limb control and physical fitness, if he took a few lessons on the nature of proper combat and committed to learning it he'd be able to do quite well if you ask me.

Wasn't there a saying that goes something like, "never hand a man who can't dance a sword" ?

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

" The great mistake is to anticipate the outcome of the engagement "

Bruce Lee

Let's face it nobody knows who would prevail in a swordfight between the katana practitioner in the video and any ARMA member.

.

[Jonathan Newhall]

A dancing master as the masters would say, but he is quite talented despite the dubious martial application of his skills. I just wouldn't want to learn how to swordfight from the guy until he showed something more solid.

A far more disturbing display of choreography, however, is this in the related videos. At least the British guy is...

I would also dispute "the ultimate martial arts weapon", but then again, so would we all

[Tom Kinder]

well those guys are both better than this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqY8tJSQG0

I'm actually embarrassed for him

[Jonathan Newhall]

Hah, great find, Tom! I'm watching them all just to get a laugh or two.

"I have no stances!"

"Twice the sword makes you doubly effective!"

and

"Stances make you predictable in combat!"

are three of my favorite lines

[Tom Kinder]

yeah well watch his Authenticity in training series: for this gem "any sort of protective gear you may have: GET RID OF IT" and Bokken can be a great tool but, take the tsuba off. it's a hand guard and any protective gear has to go, you need to learn to protect your hands without a guard."

I also love that he cuts with a shirasaya (blade in storage mounts for those not into japanses sword stuff. shirasaya were never meant for fighting or cutting or use in any way short of display.)

and if you want a real treat try and contact the guy. be polite even just don't validate his claims that he is the uber awesomest swordsman ever and he will tear into you. I speak from experience.

[Jonathan Newhall]

I did eventually come across a video on edge-to-edge blocking and it turns out that has some content that is, well, correct-ish.

The ones preceding it, however? Great for a laugh and a headache for the noise in the background.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Hah, great find, Tom! I'm watching them all just to get a laugh or two.

"I have no stances!"

Your arrogance is not pretty.

There is plenty of precedence for having no specific stances in the Philipino traditions, which as you should know have a European influence.

Until one fights in earnest with any of the people who are being mocked here there is no basis for public assumptions of superiority.

Furthermore 'KenseiSL' makes no claim to profiency in European Renaissance Martial Arts as described in the medieval self defence training manuals which are used here, so should not be judged using the ARMA curriculum..

.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Your calling me arrogant is not pretty.

Find me a martial art that specifically instructs its students to not change the way they stand or move from day-to-day life that is remotely martially effective and I will pay you good money.

It's one thing to not instruct specific, rigid stance-like structure. We should all know by now that rigid stance use is indeed a weakness. Contrarily, we should also know that purposefully not investing proper thought into how to most effectively defend oneself through posture because NOT having any kind of guard is "better" is blatantly moronic.

What judging I do I do not do in regards to a particular system, but martial efficiency in general. What that video demonstrated was a severe lack of understanding the reality of using one or more weapons in a martially effective manner, PERIOD. I am not assuming I am a superior fighter, I am in fact quite a poor fighter at this juncture. What I do have, however, are analytical skills and a moderate amount of experience. If I tried anything in that video that he was doing against my sparring partner I would just get cracked in the head and I sure as hell know it.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

Your calling me arrogant is not pretty.

Sorry but I find laughing at and mocking the sincere efforts of others simply because they don't do what you do to be arrogant.

Find me a martial art that specifically instructs its students to not change the way they stand or move from day-to-day life that is remotely martially effective and I will pay you good money.

My first teacher Grand Master Bobby Taboada says ( as do all balintawak practitioners ) that no fixed or prescribed steps or stances are required and that stepping should come naturally and be 'just like walking'

Balintawak is martially effective !

How much will you pay ?

Nor does KenseiSL advise not moving at all, as can be seen from his videos.

In any case there's no need to post such mocking threads, it's just bad mannered.

.

.

[Roy Robinson Stewart]

By the way, calling on God in the way that this thread title does is either

1) Talking about 'nonsensical metaphysical nonsense' as specifically prohibited in the site rules

or

2) Using the term 'God' insincerely and in a way which is likely to offend those who are believers.

That, combined with the mocking attitude to the other martial artists shown here, makes this thread a sad display.

In my opinion the thread should be locked. I have great respect for the ARMA but threads like this undermine that respect, i'm sure i'm not alone in my opinion, but if I am, so be it.

.

[Stacy Clifford]

Roy, I don't know about Filipino sword fighting, but with regards to European knife fighting I would agree that stances are not heavily emphasized (though grips are) because it's generally assumed that a knife fight is a surprise at too close a range to get yourself ready. For a knife this makes perfect sense, but for swords it's different. Sure, swordfights can start that way too, but the natural attack range and the leverage and power are quite different obviously, and require different biomechanics to counter effectively. The stances developed in both eastern and western swordsmanship are based on those biomechanics and exist for good reason. The guy's argument that they are predictable may be slightly true, but he's painting stances as all cost and no benefit, which is not true.

I also think it's rather ironic that while he's talking about "no stances," he's really in a relaxed low guard with one foot slightly ahead of the other, and a couple of times as he defends imaginary attacks, he steps into what is effectively a stance. Even in trying to debunk them he can't seem to avoid them. His thrust blocks, while swift, are done entirely too close to his body to have any margin for error, and his attacks with the offhand sword unfortunately look kind of comical. He is right about two swords requiring ambidexterity, Di Grassi says the same thing, but if he really thinks you should learn without the hand guards on the sword, all I can say to that is four thousand years of swordsmen and swordmakers using hand guards on every continent weren't stupid.

[Stacy Clifford]

This thread degenerated even while I was typing. Though we have a duty to point out martially unsound displays, teachers and advice and can do it in a lighthearted way, let's try to keep our critiques on a scholarly level as much as possible. This thread will be locked if it turns into a flame war.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Sorry but I find laughing at and mocking the sincere efforts of others simply because they don't do what you do to be arrogant.

And there, you are wrong. I am not laughing at or mocking his efforts because he does not do "what I do", it's because what he IS doing is absurd. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong; I would never tell a practictioner of kenjutsu he's "doing it wrong" and go laughing off into the night because he's using a katana simply because it's not a rapier or longsword or what have you, that would be completely unwarranted and ridiculous.

However, a man with techniques such as these claiming to be teaching "real world swordfighting skills" is frankly laughable and therefore I was doing just that - laughing. I gave credit where it was due in regards to his video on edge-blocks, wherein he claims, quite correctly (making certain to differentiate between western and eastern weapons, even!) that blocking edge to edge is not something you want to seek out if you can avoid it, but on the other hand I also found it humorous at junctures it deserves criticism.

What is arrogant, however,is first of all assuming this about myself, and second of all assuming that just because somebody claims something means that I have to believe it. That man with two swords is claiming several things. They are wrong, whether he is giving it his best effort or not. He does have stances, which he employs contrary to his belief (as Stacy mentioned). Stances do not make you weaker than "not having stances", and properly employed quite the opposite. Two swords does not equal double the effectiveness. It is fact that he says these things, it is fact that they are not true. I find this irony humorous. If you have a problem with that I will note your complaint, but please refrain from name-calling. It's certainly no nicer than what I am doing.

My first teacher Grand Master Bobby Taboada says ( as do all balintawak practitioners ) that no fixed or prescribed steps or stances are required and that stepping should come naturally and be 'just like walking'

Should it be just like walking as in it is the same, physically, as walking (in which case I must ask: why are you walking around like you are down the sidewalk during a life or death struggle for survival? That doesn't seem terribly wise), or that it should be practiced to the point that it is, in your mind, as easy as walking, and therefore just like it in that regard?

Further, with no systemized form of motion, how is it even a codefied martial art with certified teachers to begin with? That seems most counterintuitive.

Nor does KenseiSL advise not moving at all, as can be seen from his videos.

Nobody said he advised not moving.

In any case there's no need to post such mocking threads, it's just bad mannered.

Yet it is also warranted as it demonstrates the amount of ignorance remaining in the world at large regarding the vast extense of martial arts and their applications. I admit outright mockery is perhaps overmuch, but the thread does serve a purpose.

By the way, calling on God in the way that this thread title does is either

1) Talking about 'nonsensical metaphysical nonsense' as specifically prohibited in the site rules

or

2) Using the term 'God' insincerely and in a way which is likely to offend those who are believers.

You are opening a whole other can of worms all by yourself at this point by not only prodding at folks, but also by attempting to incite religious debate with your statements. The aforementioned believers would, if they were offended by use of the word "god" in the thread title, also be offended by you even considering that their deity is "metaphysical nonsense" deserving of banishment under forum rules and would likely be offended that the forums therefore take a blatantly atheist slant, not to mention that those who are not believers would also likely take offense to you catering to the feelings of those who have divergent beliefs from themselves. Frankly I think you should leave that particular issue alone if defending poor martial form isn't enough.

That, combined with the mocking attitude to the other martial artists shown here, makes this thread a sad display.

The point is they aren't martial artists, that's why we find them funny. They are posers. Some more than others. The initial video is about what is essentially a sword-dance, which is something many period masters warned about (calling them "dancing masters" and "dancing schools" rather than actual schools of self defense. McDojos were a problem even back then, apparently). This is a distinctly relevant, though perhaps not exactly a NICE, topic.

In my opinion the thread should be locked. I have great respect for the ARMA but threads like this undermine that respect, i'm sure i'm not alone in my opinion, but if I am, so be it.

ARMA didn't officially start this thread, ARMA didn't officially condone this thread, and ARMA didn't take an official stance in this thread. Whatever you may feel about the thread's starter or other posting participants, ARMA has absolutely nothing to do with it at this juncture. If this thread is affecting your opinion of ARMA, it shouldn't, because it is not an ARMA thread.


As a closing, Roy, you seem to have the impression that we are doing several things we are most distinctly not. First, we are not claiming we could "take them in a fight", which seems evidenced as your line of thought by the third post of the thread. Nobody said these men are poor at fighting, necessarily. We are saying, however, that what they are doing in the videos is very nearly nonsense when it DOES come to fighting. Frankly I wouldn't fancy my chances against a guy with two swords whether I am who I am today with all of my experience or even me two years ago with no experience - the difference is very little in how I believe it would help me in a fight. However, this does not prevent me from knowing what SHOULD be done, and that such things as were being demonstrated were not it.

And again, in your first post where you call me arrogant you AGAIN seem to misconstrue that there is any objective comparison of their "ability to fight" against mine or any other's. This is not the case. We are, again, only poking fun at people making claims they cannot possibly substantiate and demonstrating skills that are not designed for martial application (though not necessarily both at the same time in the same video).


Second, we are not simply out to "mock" people who are different. The only derisive entertainment I've gleaned are from silly plattitudes and hypocrisys the man who claims to be able to train youtube goers in practical swordsmanship never ceases to spout out of the videos he makes. Claiming something blatantly untrue, and then even continuing on to demonstrate something contrary to what was claimed is such a disaster I can barely even sort it out sometimes, and therefore it is humorous. If you need humor explained further perhaps this is outside of my sphere of expertise.

At any rate, you have done a smash-up job on getting the thread locked, or so I sense coming, with your own comments, not because of the thread itself. Insulting me, for one, and making all manner of religious discussion for another. And, before you blame me, if you blame me, keep in mind I was only responding to you.


As a matter of course, I am with Stacy: it is important to point out martially unsound displays, and possibly glean some entertainment from them if that's your kind of entertainment, so long as it is, in fact, to point out martially unsound displays, and not simply a negative form of entertainment.

EDIT - Also as a note, if I've said anything unduly insulting or such, I apologize in advance. I was tired writing this and I tend to be a bit rude and blunt when I'm tired. Hopefully none of that has bled into this post too badly.