Question about sword play

[Anthony Martin]

I am new to this site and it got me reading about WMA. I'm most of the way through "The Marial Arts of Renaissance Europe" and had a question some of the practitioners here could answer.

Much of the swordplay from the historic manuals appear to show options of what to do in particular situations. During actual sparring sessions, is it truly a matter of switching from one distinctly described move to another or is there a lot more of a chaotic element involved? (it would appear as such from watching videos of free-play).

I can see that during the 'onset' that a specific number of guards and counters will be employed. After this I can see it becoming much more complex in the progression.

So in these more complex situations is prevailing a matter of knowing which move to execute based on muscle memory or are there other fundamental concepts at work? If there are more fundamental elements involved, what might those be?

[Sal Bertucci]

While individual techniques are important, and show situational advantages, at ARMA we believe that all fighting is based on the simple principles like fulen, strong, weak, Vor, Nach, and Indes.

[Doug Marnick]

Good question.

When I started out, I would work on the techniques (guards & cuts) one at a time. Now I have dcveloped more of a flow from one to another. Eventually, I want to be good enough to flourish smoothly where I am not so conscious or analytical of my movements. It's like when I play guitar. I'm decent at a lot of techniques, but I have trouble playing a solo.

If a professional fighter was suddenly involved in a street fight, he/she would incorporate learned techniques instinctively and react to everything in the moment (indes as Sal mentioned, muscle memory as you called it)

So as techniques are learned, it becomes more natural and the free play videos are great evidence of that. You will see things there that may seem chaotic on the surface but as you become more aware of the Art, your observations will be more revealing.

[Jeff Hansen]

The individual techniques are there to give context to the principles that Sal mentioned. So, by all means, learn the techniques, but think about why you are using that move and why it's working for that situation. Always try to fathom the principles at work and see how they can be applied across the board. Understanding of the comcepts will make you a more powerfull and versatile fighter than mere memorization of techniques. In the chaos of a fight, the picture perfect opportunity to pull off a move exactly as it is shown in the manual is fairly rare, but the principles always apply.

[Anthony Martin]

While individual techniques are important, and show situational advantages, at ARMA we believe that all fighting is based on the simple principles like fulen, strong, weak, Vor, Nach, and Indes.

Thank you all for the responding.

What text/translation best lays out and explains the concepts listed above by Sal? I am determining what to read next.

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm a bit biased, but I like Ringeck. (It was my first RMA book) I think he explains it rather well, but others think differently.

[Jonathan Newhall]

I am new to this site and it got me reading about WMA. I'm most of the way through "The Marial Arts of Renaissance Europe" and had a question some of the practitioners here could answer.

Much of the swordplay from the historic manuals appear to show options of what to do in particular situations. During actual sparring sessions, is it truly a matter of switching from one distinctly described move to another or is there a lot more of a chaotic element involved? (it would appear as such from watching videos of free-play).

Yes and no. The manuals show what one is to do in a particular situation, yes, and in sparring you are to attempt to replicate those moves if those situations should arise, yes, but no it is not as easy as that.

It's very much what you'd expect from the theory of fighting - it will work, if you can manage to apply it, much like the theory of anything. When you are actually fighting it's unlikely that your opponent will assume a stance and hold it there and not move to let you use whatever technique is the counter - he will of course keep his stance in motion, and of course switch stances, too! Not only that he will be moving and evading with his footwork in an attempt to thwart any technique you use on him, while simultaneously analyzing what it is you are doing and trying to do the same back! If you follow my meaning, the techniques are what you are doing, but it is a practical application, not the clear-cut method present in the manuals which has to be so clinical because it must be applied to so many different situations.

I can see that during the 'onset' that a specific number of guards and counters will be employed. After this I can see it becoming much more complex in the progression.

So in these more complex situations is prevailing a matter of knowing which move to execute based on muscle memory or are there other fundamental concepts at work? If there are more fundamental elements involved, what might those be?

At its core, it is about knowing the right thing to do in your current situation. The situation, though, can get very strange very quickly, and sometimes all one can do is improvise based on what you do know can be done in similar situations.

I suppose I've not given a very good explanation, but hopefully it points you in the right direction.

[Greg Coffman]

Here is a way to think about sword fighting. You have your toolbox of all possible guards, cuts, techniques, ways to step, etc. Then you have some way of discerning which tool to use when which covers areas of fulhen, hard/soft, strong/weak, audacity, binding high rather than low, vor and nach, indes. Then there is execution which includes footwork, timing, distance, etc. It is all very complex to say. It is striaghtforward to do. But it is hard to work up the skill. Like anything, it takes experience: fighting, fighting, and more fighting.

[Stacy Clifford]

In my opinion it's impossible for most people to recall from a list of hundreds of pre-programmed techniques and switch between them in the heat of the moment in a fight, mock or lethal. Fighting is all about opportunity - knowing how to create it, seize it and exploit it. As was said earlier, techniques in the manuals teach you principles, and you learn how those principles apply relative to the motion and position of you and your opponent. When the fight gets thick and ugly, you act according to those principles (example: my hands are slightly above his, therefore I slam down on them) and the result is technique. All techniques came from somebody making the most efficient and sensible movement in the situation they were presented with, who then remembered it later and was able to repeat it. By using technique to learn principle, you get to the point where you don't need the list of techniques because acting on principle recreates them on its own, and thus you come full circle. Make sense?

[Kyle Shriver]

Very well said Stacy. That makes perfect sense to me.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Yeah, Stacy more or less got it. You learn the techniques to understand how they work, then all other technique, both those given and those improvised, comes naturally since you understand the basis of WHY they work.

[Anthony Martin]

By using technique to learn principle, you get to the point where you don't need the list of techniques because acting on principle recreates them on its own, and thus you come full circle. Make sense?

This makes a lot of sense to me. It shows the importance of learning the techniques not as an end-all but rather as a means for better understanding.

Thank you all for the great information

[Tim Ingersoll]

I have been wondering while reading this thread, is it better to learn the movements in a slow and controlled manner focusing on form or to learn at speed and then perfect the form through practice?

Tim

[Stacy Clifford]

I have been wondering while reading this thread, is it better to learn the movements in a slow and controlled manner focusing on form or to learn at speed and then perfect the form through practice?

Tim

I think you need to do some of both.