Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford
THANK YOU!I apologize in advance for the wall of text, but I just stumbled upon this site and I want to make the most of such a powerful resource, so I have a ton of questions to ask.
I am an amateur writer, and my current project is fantasy-inspired, but only loosely. Definitely not Middle-earth, with the elves and the trolls and the wizards – think Arthurian England and you're closer to the mark. It’s not historical fiction, since it takes place in a totally original world, but I would still like to draw on historical precedent in order to lend it an air of credibility. I hate reading a novel in which the stone-jawed, taciturn hero rescues the buxom damsel by fighting off hordes of minions singlehandedly, chopping clean through their plate armor with his sword – my suspension of disbelief reaches a breaking point.
Since I have no legitimate experience in Western martial arts myself, I defer to this community, which appears to be the most knowledgeable I have found. I have a list of questions – and the list is huge, because they're questions that I've scribbled down over a long period, compiled here so I can ask them all at once. I certainly don't expect anyone to answer all of them, but if you the reader have sufficient knowledge to offer even a speculative opinion on one or two, you would be immensely helpful.
Again, my project is a mix of fantasy and reality – I don't claim to be writing a historical novel, but rather a sort of pseudo-fantasy that relies on real-world precedent in arms, armor, and fighting technique to make it more authentic.
You’ll see that the questions are organized into rough categories. If any of the questions need to be clarified, feel free to say so.
I'll let other more knowledgable people answer that for youWeapons
1. Is it important important for a weapon to be custom built for an individual? Would arms be forged to account for the prospective bearer's preference in weight, length, balance, etc? (To use an analogy: professional baseball players all use the same kind of bat, but the length, weight, shape, and even species of wood will vary from player to player according to preference.)
IIRC remember correctly Digrasse shows someone dual-wielding with two rapiers.2. I realize that there is no clear historical precedent for two-weapon fighting with anything bigger than a sword and dagger, but, based on modern research and experimentation, is that style at all feasible under any circumstances? How effective can it be?
See reply to #13. How did a given style fare against other styles? That is to say, would a man fighting with an arming sword and heater have been at an inherent disadvantage against a man with a longsword? or a man with a polearm?
Most medieval people carried a dagger, so yes. And at least in the 1500's the Men-At-Arms (Knights if you will) carried a sword (some say two, with one being slung off the saddle), warhammer (and?)/or mace, dagger, and by 1540 a pistol for emergencies.4. What weapons would a knight typically carry? Would he carry a sword but also a mace, for example, so that he is more versatile when he faces differently armored opponents? Would he always carry a dagger, either for general utility or to finish a downed opponent? (Obviously “knight” can mean any of a hundred diverse warriors from different eras and locations – but is there a general answer, however vague?)
If he was doing something clandestine then yeah he might want to avoid wearing plate, but he had acsess then yes he would probably where it when it was needed.Armor
5. If plate armor is technologically available and, for a given person, financially affordable, would the person have any reason to not use it?
Yeah, you'll see in history that with more plate the smaller the shield and eventually it vanishes.6. If a man has access to full plate armor, is a shield obsolete? If so, what is the heaviest armor a man could wear that would still allow a shield to be viable and useful?
I would vastly prefer full plate and a longsword to light armour and a big shield.7. Would it make sense for someone to prefer lighter armor and a shield rather than heavier armor and a two-handed weapon, or is the latter option so clearly superior it would be senseless to choose otherwise?
Yeah, there are plenty of historical accounts which mention the massive protectice qualities of plate. A sword isn't gonna much to a man in full plate.8. Would a man in plate armor be able to use his armor as a shield? That is, would he feel comfortable missing a parry, intentionally or otherwise, because he is confident that the opponent's weapon cannot damage his armor?
It depends, during a campaign I would prefer to keep at least some of my armour on even when there was fighting.9. Is plate armor comfortable to wear over a long period of time, assuming that the wearer is not exerting himself? Or would he don his armor only immediately before he expects combat and then undress immediately after it's ended? What about mail and other lighter armor?
Well if he's been trained and conditioned for this sort thing since he was seven and training ended and he became knighted at twenty-one then I would say he could go on for a while.10. What role does fitness play? How long can a man in plate or mail armor fight before he becomes winded, assuming he is well trained and well conditioned?
Yes, it just takes longer as you said.11. Could a man armor himself without assistance, even if it would take much longer than doing so with an aide?
Set a guy in plate to fight a guy in plate armour. Thing is there's not much that can really get through (case in point Ravenna 1512) plate, in fact there are arguments that the spike on poleaxe's was for hooking, the best thing to do is use your own knights to sweep them of the field. And I wouldn't advise taking a sword against a man in full plate those gaps will protected by mail and you're certainly not gonna hack through that.12. What is the best offense against plate armor: a polearm or some other weapon with reach; a blunt impact weapon; a pointed sword to thrust at armor gaps; or any weapon that allows you to knock your opponent down so that he can be grappled and killed? (Or some other option entirely?)
Not easy as he'll be trying to do the same to you.13. How easy is it to grapple or knock a man in plate armor to the ground so as to finish him off more easily (e.g., with a dagger)?
Not really, while your character is getting better vision, etc. Somone else will be putting a blade through his handsome face.14. Would it ever be wise to go without a helmet so as to afford better breathing, heat dispersal, and sensory faculties at the expense of exposing your head?
Look up the I:33 although it's intended more for one on one unarmoured combat. It's also the oldest known manual in existence (written around 1295)Shields
15. First, is there an Internet source for a good overview of sword-and-shield combat? It seems most articles I’ve found deal with sword and buckler, while I’m more interested in arming swords and round, kite, or heater shields.
See reply to #116. Did all shields feature a guige? How was the guige used? I understand that it allowed a person to carry his shield outside of combat, but how was it used during combat? It seems unwieldy and awkward for a leather strap to be hanging unsecured during the heat of battle.
Preference I would say17. If a man has access to any shield style – heater, kite, round, buckler, etc. – would one style offer a clear and definite advantage over all others, or would his choice be largely a matter of preference?
Jousting. Guys in jousting plate with lances that had a cornel over the point. I'm not sure about accidental deaths I do know that early tournaments were turned to the civilized joust thing of later times because so many knights kept getting killed.General Combat
18. Is there a method of combat that is non-lethal? For example, I imagine that the melee at a medieval tournament would be non-lethal (though probably very brutal and ugly). If so, how is the winner of a match determined – is it as simple as knocking the other guy out cold? How frequent were accidental deaths?
It would probably like a small skirmish with the opponents fighting individually but as a team.19. What would group combat look like? Not in the sense of two massive armies clashing, but rather a group of maybe five to ten elite fighters facing a force of similar size and skill. What tactics would each sides use? What sort of arms and armor would the participants bear? I’ve read all about combat between armies of grunts, and all about single combat between two knights, but I don’t know if there is a historical model for combat between two small groups like this, so I guess the answer would be mostly speculative.
If the fight goes beyond thirty seconds in duration the combatants don't know what they're or they're putting on a show.20. How long might a typical single or small-group combat (as in #19) last? Does one guy smack the other guy with a sword and it’s all over, or is it a more drawn-out affair?
Apples and oranges Battleships and Cruisers. Keep in mind that knights were ideally a happy medium of all those things21. For a knight/warrior/whatever, what is the relative value of strength, size, and other brute power compared to skill, agility, battle savvy, vision of the field, etc?
Perhaps to the people that know him really well (His sparring buddy, his trainer, etc.)22. Could an individual’s fighting style be so distinctive that he could be identified even in the absence of other signals? Imagine that his armor completely disguises his features and build, and that he doesn’t bear a coat of arms.
Yes, they were trained to fight with their 'off-hand'23. What is the incidence of ambidexterity? With enough practice, could it be self-taught? Would a fighter meeting an opponent who is ambidextrous or left-handed be at a disadvantage, since he is more familiar with attacks by a right-handed opponent?
It depends, there's an incident in the Hundred Years War where one knight killed forty peasants before they bought him down.24. Imagine a very talented, well trained knight clad in plate armor and wielding a longsword or other effective weapon: how many "lesser" opponents - poorly trained, poorly armored, etc - might he be able to handle at once? What method might he use to improve his chances? At some point, does it just become a matter of mobbing him and wrestling him to the ground, no matter how well-armored he is?
Makes sense. But, given the choice, would a fighter notice any difference between a weapon made to his specifications and a generic “off the shelf” one?1. No, A lamborghini is nice but a yugo will get you to the store and back.
So, a person in plate armor can still make use of a shield, but only if he is mounted? Why is that?6.Yes, but only applies to dismounted.
I did read a bit about halfswording, so I realize that even full harness is not impenetrable. What does it feel like to get hit, though? Even if the blade can’t penetrate and cause cutting or blunt trauma, is the force of impact enough to take you off balance or make you see stars? (You have to understand, this is difficult for me to imagine – I’ve never handled a real sword bigger than a modern fencing foil, and I’ve certainly never been hit by one, so I can’t wrap my head around the weight and force of impact it can generate.)8. Yes and no. Yes, because that's the whole point of a full harness. Comfortable getting hit? Very doubtfull. By the way, look around the site for references to halfswording and armor. Fighting against someone in full harness is a different kind of animal.
Like I said, I’ve done some reading on halfswording, so I think I get the idea: the edge of a sword won’t do a thing to plate armor, but halfswording allows the bearer to precisely and powerfully steer the point at a vulnerable target. In this case, “vulnerable” means the gaps between plates – and even if there is mail protecting those spots, the force of a halfsword blow is enough to split mail rings. I think I saw that last part in a demonstration video. (Does that all sound about right?)12. Polearm: not necesarilly. Impact: that would work. Combine the sword and the knocking down and, seriously; do some research into halfswording.
I guess I’m just a victim of mass media and I picture a man in full harness lumbering around, tripping over himself, unable to see a thing through his visor – so you can easily outmaneuver him and trip him to the ground, where he’ll lie like a turtle on its back. But even the cursory research I’ve done at ARMA and elsewhere has corrected my incorrect preconceptions.13. Same as a man not in armor except he's 60-80 lbs. heavier, obviuosly punching and elbows have no effect, and if you aren't also in harness he's all corners, if you catch my meaning.
From the ARMA videos I’ve watched, combat is indeed over very fast – but that’s when the fighters are unarmored, and a single touch is enough to halt the bout. The same applies even if the men are in full harness and you must place a very well-aimed strike through your opponent’s defense to even affect him at all? (I think I read that ARMA or some similar group also practices full-harness combat – am I right, and is there video of it somewhere?)20.Strategic withdrawls and maneuvering might draw things out, but the actual fighting would be very fast. Keep in mind, assuming equal numbers at the outset, as soon as one guy goes down you have a two on one situation on the next guy. Our experience in practice is that this turns ugly VERY quickly for the first side to lose a fighter.
I agree with the general principle, but not necessarily with its fringe cases. Modern combat sports – boxing, wrestling, etc – use weight classes for a reason. (Though I guess weapon combat is a whole other animal – Olympic fencing, for example, doesn’t have weight classes.)21. Skill trumps size and strength, particularly when weapons are involved, and even when they aren't.
I suppose I was referring more to sword-and-shield combat. I don’t know how much ARMA has experimented with that sort of thing, especially since it has no solid historical source, but I wondered if modern experimentation might have proven anything. I know that when I fenced in college – for only half a semester, mind you, because I needed a credit – it was always a pain to be paired with one of the lefties in the class. But I’d done the sport for only a few weeks, so practice and experience might have eliminated the lefty advantage.23. No advantage. There are essentially four planes of attack, each having two directions, plus thrusts. Which hand is holding the weapon means nothing.
Immensely helpful, yes – thanks a ton.I have opinions on all of your questions but these are the ones I feel are pretty well informed opinions. I hope they're helpfull. Thanks for your interest in authenticity and good luck with the writing.
Has modern trial-and-error shown any use for something like two arming swords? Or are weapons of that size completely unwieldy?IIRC remember correctly Digrasse shows someone dual-wielding with two rapiers.
Excellent – just the kind of answer I was looking for. Do you have a favored source regarding the arms and armor of this period? (I know how to use Google, but just curious if there’s a particularly credible or comprehensive source you know of.)If you want shields and plate I would advise Hundred years type armour, cuirass, hounskull, arm and leg plates and brigandine and mail, as well as a shield.
How about full plate and a longsword versus the sort of armor you mention just above? I mean, plate is pretty solid stuff, but a cuirass and mail aren’t exactly paper-mâché – would the more lightly armored fellow stand a chance in Hell, or would he enter the fight only with a deathwish? Would the lighter armor afford him any advantage in mobility? As I mentioned above, I have no personal experience with real arms and armor, so I have trouble just imagining their weight and (un)wieldiness.I would vastly prefer full plate and a longsword to light armour and a big shield.
That’s the sort of info I was hoping for…do you know of a source where I could do more reading?Cortez's men even sleeped in their (much to the natives chagrin when they tried to stab the conquistadors in their sleep.
There aren’t straps he can’t reach, or that sort of thing?Yes, it just takes longer as you said.
As I mentioned when I responded to Jeff Hansen above – I could’ve sworn I saw a video, or at least photographs, of a halfsworded longsword easily splitting mail. Does that sound incredible to you?Set a guy in plate to fight a guy in plate armour. Thing is there's not much that can really get through (case in point Ravenna 1512) plate, in fact there are arguments that the spike on poleaxe's was for hooking, the best thing to do is use your own knights to sweep them of the field. And I wouldn't advise taking a sword against a man in full plate those gaps will protected by mail and you're certainly not gonna hack through that.
Haha…true. I guess the question might be better phrased, How badly does a closed-face helmet obstruct your senses and inhibit your breathing?Not really, while your character is getting better vision, etc. Somone else will be putting a blade through his handsome face.
I do recall reading that jousting is relatively safe – with an emphasis on “relatively.” But is there a non-lethal analogue for foot combat?Jousting. Guys in jousting plate with lances that had a cornel over the point. I'm not sure about accidental deaths I do know that early tournaments were turned to the civilized joust thing of later times because so many knights kept getting killed.
So, it’s as simple as “I take this guy, you take that guy, and if I kill my guy then I’ll help you with yours”? It simply breaks down to a gathering of unrelated single combats, without any appreciable overarching strategy to the encounter?It would probably like a small skirmish with the opponents fighting individually but as a team.
In full plate armor, even?If the fight goes beyond thirty seconds in duration the combatants don't know what they're or they're putting on a show.
And thanks for the patience in answering. Honestly, after just an hour or two reading ARMA’s articles and forums, I had developed a strong distaste for combat as it is represented even in “historical” media the likes of Braveheart or Gladiator, let alone the sort of combat you’ll find in fantasy. The genre requires enough suspension of disbelief as it is – dragons, magic, etc – and it’s my goal to inject at least the barest authenticity, if I can manage it. (Don’t hold your breath about reading my book any time soon, though – this is just an early research stage.Thank you again for taking time to research this stuff for writing, I look forward to reading your book.
I’ve had that site bookmarked forever but didn’t even think to consult it. I’ll hop over there and do some reading, and maybe give them some of my questions about armor, since ARMA is clearly more weapons-oriented.I would also reccomend you look up a site called myarmoury that should help you a lot.
1. The wealthier fighters (or those with richer patrons) often did have weapons customized to their specifications, and they usually were higher quality and enhanced the person's preferred fighting style (for example, rapiers were developed for people who already preferred thrusting over cutting to begin with). However, sometimes you just needed 5000 swords right away for those new troops and you didn't have time for everybody to be picky, so there were also "munitions grade" weapons that were all the same. I got to handle a late 1500s cut & thrust considered "town guard quality" once and it blew the doors off the modern replica of the same sword in performance, so even an average sword was usually a well-made tool. Poorer soldiers also often carried weapons scavenged from the battlefield and even a rich knight might lose his weapon and have to pick up the nearest replacement, so performance standards had to be pretty uniformly high for everyone - it was a matter of life and death.Weapons
1. Is it important important for a weapon to be custom built for an individual? Would arms be forged to account for the prospective bearer's preference in weight, length, balance, etc? (To use an analogy: professional baseball players all use the same kind of bat, but the length, weight, shape, and even species of wood will vary from player to player according to preference.)
2. A number of late Renaissance masters include instruction for two cut & thrust swords or rapiers in their manuals, including Di Grassi which I've been studying recently, but nearly all of them include the same advice that you should be equally skilled with the sword in your left hand as your right, otherwise fighting this way would be unwise. So yes it was feasible, but it required a high degree of trained skill or natural ambidexterity or it was too risky. Using an off-hand dagger does not require as much skill, which is why it was much more common.2. I realize that there is no clear historical precedent for two-weapon fighting with anything bigger than a sword and dagger, but, based on modern research and experimentation, is that style at all feasible under any circumstances? How effective can it be?
3. That depends mostly on the skill of the fighter, but George Silver generally held that longer weapons have the advantage over shorter weapons up to a point (pike lengths offer diminishing returns). Any weapon can be defeated by any other if used right though, and I particularly like sword & buckler against all comers.3. How did a given style fare against other styles? That is to say, would a man fighting with an arming sword and heater have been at an inherent disadvantage against a man with a longsword? or a man with a polearm?
5. Depends on his job. If you're doing hit-and-run tactics or light skirmishing on open ground, you probably want lighter armor that allows you greater speed. If you're smashing down the front ranks and wading into a giant crowd like a human lawn mower, plate is the way to go. Plate is probably also better in single (planned, ritual) combat simply because you are the sole focus of your opponent's murderous attention.Armor
5. If plate armor is technologically available and, for a given person, financially affordable, would the person have any reason to not use it?
6. Pretty much, yeah. You can use a shield in plate armor physically, but except as an umbrella in an arrow storm there's really no need. Look at art before the 1300s for the type of armor worn when shields were still widely used.6. If a man has access to full plate armor, is a shield obsolete? If so, what is the heaviest armor a man could wear that would still allow a shield to be viable and useful?
7. See answer to #5. I find a single hand sword better for run-by attacks, but if you have to face off with your opponent, more armor and using both hands give better advantage.7. Would it make sense for someone to prefer lighter armor and a shield rather than heavier armor and a two-handed weapon, or is the latter option so clearly superior it would be senseless to choose otherwise?
8. The thing to remember about armor is that although it increases your margin of error, any damage it takes reduces its effectiveness and costs money to fix if you make it home. Like the airbag in your car, you're glad to have it if you need it, but you'd rather avoid using it if skill can keep you safe instead.8. Would a man in plate armor be able to use his armor as a shield? That is, would he feel comfortable missing a parry, intentionally or otherwise, because he is confident that the opponent's weapon cannot damage his armor?
9. Our Virginia Beach guys, who have more armor among them, have talked of practicing all afternoon in plate armor in the summer heat of Virginia. As long as the armor is well made for ventilation, it's apparently something you can get used to (even though it's still bloody hot). The same should go for any type of armor. If you're fighting hard, you'll sweat buckets no matter what you wear.9. Is plate armor comfortable to wear over a long period of time, assuming that the wearer is not exerting himself? Or would he don his armor only immediately before he expects combat and then undress immediately after it's ended? What about mail and other lighter armor?
10. http://www.thearma.org/essays/fit/RennFit.htm10. What role does fitness play? How long can a man in plate or mail armor fight before he becomes winded, assuming he is well trained and well conditioned?
12. Warhammers and maces were made for smashing armor and breaking bones underneath, and axes can do nasty damage as well. Some polearms made excellent can openers, others not so much:12. What is the best offense against plate armor: a polearm or some other weapon with reach; a blunt impact weapon; a pointed sword to thrust at armor gaps; or any weapon that allows you to knock your opponent down so that he can be grappled and killed? (Or some other option entirely?)
13. Easy if you surprise them, hard if they see it coming, especially if both of you are skilled in wrestling. Most halfswording and dagger in armor is more throws and disarms than stabbing at joints. Get them off balance or on the ground first, then stab them.13. How easy is it to grapple or knock a man in plate armor to the ground so as to finish him off more easily (e.g., with a dagger)?
14. Many fighters wore open-faced helmets for exactly that reason, but nobody in their right mind would leave the top and back of their head unprotected in such a random environment as the battlefield, too many things flying around in all directions where you're not looking.14. Would it ever be wise to go without a helmet so as to afford better breathing, heat dispersal, and sensory faculties at the expense of exposing your head?
15. Jon Clements' book Medieval Swordsmanship, while outdated now in many aspects, contains an excellent section on sword & shield combat which is still one of the best references out there. Di Grassi includes some instruction on a medium sized shield called a rotella in 1570.Shields
15. First, is there an Internet source for a good overview of sword-and-shield combat? It seems most articles I’ve found deal with sword and buckler, while I’m more interested in arming swords and round, kite, or heater shields.
17. From what I know, round shields have always been popular in mass foot combat, especially shield walls. Kite shields give great coverage in individual combat and have some interesting offensive uses, but can be kind of cumbersome. Heater shields are the right shape and size for efficient use on horseback. Bucklers are light, fast and maneuverable and perfect for lightly armored or unarmored fighting.17. If a man has access to any shield style – heater, kite, round, buckler, etc. – would one style offer a clear and definite advantage over all others, or would his choice be largely a matter of preference?
18. Stories like these are not uncommon:General Combat
18. Is there a method of combat that is non-lethal? For example, I imagine that the melee at a medieval tournament would be non-lethal (though probably very brutal and ugly). If so, how is the winner of a match determined – is it as simple as knocking the other guy out cold? How frequent were accidental deaths?
19. Depending on terrain, smaller groups tend to spread out and chase each other around more, but they could fight in formation as well. It was said that one Celt could defeat seven Romans individually, but seven Romans together could defeat a hundred Celts. Foot soldiers probably didn't wear excessive armor most of the time so they could withstand walking all day, but modern soldiers march with 80-pound backpacks, so anything was possible if the territory was hostile enough.19. What would group combat look like? Not in the sense of two massive armies clashing, but rather a group of maybe five to ten elite fighters facing a force of similar size and skill. What tactics would each sides use? What sort of arms and armor would the participants bear? I’ve read all about combat between armies of grunts, and all about single combat between two knights, but I don’t know if there is a historical model for combat between two small groups like this, so I guess the answer would be mostly speculative.
20. If their armor is decent then people don't go down as quickly, so a fairly even battle with no element of surprise might last several minutes if there is room to run, cover and obstacles available, etc. If one side gets surprise or gets lucky, it could be over in seconds. If one side starts losing badly though, they're usually going to run if they can, not stay and fight to the death, so losing just a few guys on your side could quickly turn into a rout.20. How long might a typical single or small-group combat (as in #19) last? Does one guy smack the other guy with a sword and it’s all over, or is it a more drawn-out affair?
21. The masters always considered skill and agility superior to strength (otherwise why develop skill at all?), but that doesn't mean strength was unimportant:21. For a knight/warrior/whatever, what is the relative value of strength, size, and other brute power compared to skill, agility, battle savvy, vision of the field, etc?
22. The fundamentals of fighting were largely the same all across Europe, with only minor variations in regional style, so it's unlikely anyone would be distinguished solely by his method of fighting. Masters like Meyer recognized that everyone personalizes his fighting style to a certain extent to suit his body type and natural proclivities, so it's more likely your hero would be distinguished by his manner of personal movement (long or short strides, graceful or jerky, unusual postures, etc.), choice of favored techniques (most people have some they like and use more than others), or favored weapons and tactics.22. Could an individual’s fighting style be so distinctive that he could be identified even in the absence of other signals? Imagine that his armor completely disguises his features and build, and that he doesn’t bear a coat of arms.
23. Natural ambidexterity is rare, but it can be trained or self-taught with enough discipline. In my experience left handedness seems to be more of an advantage in thrusting play than cutting (I used to sport fence as well), but a well-trained fighter should be able to defend attacks from any angle. Lethal play is simpler in some ways than sporting play, reducing the differences encountered by opposite handedness.23. What is the incidence of ambidexterity? With enough practice, could it be self-taught? Would a fighter meeting an opponent who is ambidextrous or left-handed be at a disadvantage, since he is more familiar with attacks by a right-handed opponent?
24. If he's surrounded and can't clear a space to fight in, mobbing and wrestling will work pretty quickly, though as Jeff said fists and elbows in armor can do a lot of damage to keep you in it until you're immobilized. If you can find an advantageous spot like a bottleneck then you can hold off quite a few people. Legend has it that in the Battle of Stamford Bridge a single giant Viking held the narrow bridge against the entire Saxon army until somebody got under the bridge and put a spear in his nether regions between the planks. If you're unarmored then you can stay alive by running and staying on the edges of the mob where only a few can get to you at a time and the rest are stuck in the back (take out enough leaders and the rest might get discouraged), basically herding the mob like a sheepdog. This story is a great example of a stand in an alley that turned into a running battle:24. Imagine a very talented, well trained knight clad in plate armor and wielding a longsword or other effective weapon: how many "lesser" opponents - poorly trained, poorly armored, etc - might he be able to handle at once? What method might he use to improve his chances? At some point, does it just become a matter of mobbing him and wrestling him to the ground, no matter how well-armored he is?
Actually from what I've heard from John Clements, most accounts he finds of rapier combat end very quickly, often with a single thrust (and often with both men dead). Not too long ago we had some interesting discussions on here of how a thrust can kill very quickly if accurate, but is poor at disabling an opponent if off target, whereas a cut can disable somebody very easily without being a fatal blow. George Silver felt the rapier was more an instrument of murder than of fighting, indicating that most rapier "fights" didn't involve much skill.3. Each weapon and style was designed for a purpose. A rapier is a great single combat weapon for one on one, where killing quickly is not important. Longsword is much better for a faster kill, a sabre was great from horseback but both of those are inefficient against armor, there are better choices.
Definitely agreed that cutting weapons are far better for facing multiple opponents, where you need to offend and defend in arcs, not lines. And that article is a good example of what I meant. Stab a man in the heart or eye and he usually dies pretty quickly; anywhere else and there's no predicting the outcome. Cut his arm off, or even halfway off, and he's not using that against you anymore whether he dies or not.Poor wording, my point meant more that the rapier is not as good a choice for a group fight as a long sword or sword and shield would be. My meaning on that was more the fight at a whole didn’t need to be quick, not that killing them wouldn’t be quick.
I read a different article a while ago, well you will like this one if you haven’t read it before…
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php
So, a person in plate armor can still make use of a shield, but only if he is mounted? Why is that?6.Yes, but only applies to dismounted.
I did read a bit about halfswording, so I realize that even full harness is not impenetrable. What does it feel like to get hit, though? Even if the blade can’t penetrate and cause cutting or blunt trauma, is the force of impact enough to take you off balance or make you see stars? (You have to understand, this is difficult for me to imagine – I’ve never handled a real sword bigger than a modern fencing foil, and I’ve certainly never been hit by one, so I can’t wrap my head around the weight and force of impact it can generate.)
No, that mail must have been poorly made indian mail (large rings, ahistorical riveting, etc.) or butted mail either of the two are ahistorical and I would suggest that you read on article on myarmoury by Dan Howard called Mail Unchained, it is an invaluable resource on the performance of correctly made historical mail.Like I said, I’ve done some reading on halfswording, so I think I get the idea: the edge of a sword won’t do a thing to plate armor, but halfswording allows the bearer to precisely and powerfully steer the point at a vulnerable target. In this case, “vulnerable” means the gaps between plates – and even if there is mail protecting those spots, the force of a halfsword blow is enough to split mail rings. I think I saw that last part in a demonstration video. (Does that all sound about right?)
Indeed, in reality if you trip the knight he's just gonna get back up.I guess I’m just a victim of mass media and I picture a man in full harness lumbering around, tripping over himself, unable to see a thing through his visor – so you can easily outmaneuver him and trip him to the ground, where he’ll lie like a turtle on its back. But even the cursory research I’ve done at ARMA and elsewhere has corrected my incorrect preconceptions.
Has modern trial-and-error shown any use for something like two arming swords? Or are weapons of that size completely unwieldy?
If you want shields and plate I would advise Hundred years type armour, cuirass, hounskull, arm and leg plates and brigandine and mail, as well as a shield.
Um, well shoot I can't think of anything to back that up, I would advise talking to the guys on myarmoury and/or checking out a place call the armour archive which can help you out. Disclaimer: Some of the members on armour archive can be argumentative and obscenities flow fast and free.Excellent – just the kind of answer I was looking for. Do you have a favored source regarding the arms and armor of this period? (I know how to use Google, but just curious if there’s a particularly credible or comprehensive source you know of.)
I would vastly prefer full plate and a longsword to light armour and a big shield.
The lighter armour wouldn't really give you any edge in mobility, re-enactors can turn cartwheels and perform handstands in full plate, it's extremely mobile and flexible and the relatively light weight (30-60 pounds usually) is spread out over the body.How about full plate and a longsword versus the sort of armor you mention just above? I mean, plate is pretty solid stuff, but a cuirass and mail aren’t exactly paper-mâché – would the more lightly armored fellow stand a chance in Hell, or would he enter the fight only with a deathwish? Would the lighter armor afford him any advantage in mobility? As I mentioned above, I have no personal experience with real arms and armor, so I have trouble just imagining their weight and (un)wieldiness.
Cortez's men even sleeped in their (much to the natives chagrin when they tried to stab the conquistadors in their sleep.
That’s the sort of info I was hoping for…do you know of a source where I could do more reading?
Yes, it just takes longer as you said.
Glad I could helpThere aren’t straps he can’t reach, or that sort of thing?
Not that I know of I'm basing of the personal accounts of re-enactors mind you.
Yeah it does sound incredible as evidenced by my above response to this question.As I mentioned when I responded to Jeff Hansen above – I could’ve sworn I saw a video, or at least photographs, of a halfsworded longsword easily splitting mail. Does that sound incredible to you?
For vision it depends on how close the eyeslits are to your eyes.Haha…true. I guess the question might be better phrased, How badly does a closed-face helmet obstruct your senses and inhibit your breathing?
And I believe others answered the breathing question already![]()
Yeah, the name escapes me though. I'll look it up.I do recall reading that jousting is relatively safe – with an emphasis on “relatively.” But is there a non-lethal analogue for foot combat?
So, it’s as simple as “I take this guy, you take that guy, and if I kill my guy then I’ll help you with yours”? It simply breaks down to a gathering of unrelated single combats, without any appreciable overarching strategy to the encounter?
Good question, I would looking up the Combat of the Thirty and see if that helps you, although someone who knows more about it than I do should be able to help you.
I see other people have answered that already.In full plate armor, even?
Honestly, after just an hour or two reading ARMA’s articles and forums, I had developed a strong distaste for combat as it is represented even in “historical” media the likes of Braveheart or Gladiator, let alone the sort of combat you’ll find in fantasy. The genre requires enough suspension of disbelief as it is – dragons, magic, etc – and it’s my goal to inject at least the barest authenticity, if I can manage it. (Don’t hold your breath about reading my book any time soon, though – this is just an early research stage.)
Indeed, people seem to think that because it's fantasy they can get away with anything, which just makes me weep for my beloved genre. I to am endeavoring to give my work as much authenticity as I can.
I’ve had that site bookmarked forever but didn’t even think to consult it. I’ll hop over there and do some reading, and maybe give them some of my questions about armor, since ARMA is clearly more weapons-oriented.
Tactics for leading men historically have not changed all that much over the years. If you study modern combat you will see the same trends that were important historically. Move fast, get around them; in a one on one fight, the first person who's friends arrive first, lives. Above all else, communication is key.So, it’s as simple as “I take this guy, you take that guy, and if I kill my guy then I’ll help you with yours”? It simply breaks down to a gathering of unrelated single combats, without any appreciable overarching strategy to the encounter?
Good question, I would looking up the Combat of the Thirty and see if that helps you, although someone who knows more about it than I do should be able to help you.
This is something that I’ve considered in the past, and that continues to impress me: quality historical replicas are today a true luxury item, at least in terms of price. But armor and weapons of that quality and better were mass produced hundreds of years ago, presumably at much less expense than the weapons we would buy today. How does that work? I mean, if I wanted to buy a sword today that is suitable for the sort of abuse a medieval grunt would’ve put his through, it’ll cost me hundreds of dollars, but surely the grunt couldn’t have afforded that price back in the day.1. The wealthier fighters (or those with richer patrons) often did have weapons customized to their specifications, and they usually were higher quality and enhanced the person's preferred fighting style […]
Everything I read tells me a knight’s horse is one of his greatest assets in battle – why surrender that advantage, unless your horse is skewered beneath you by a pikeman and you have no other choice?I'm not sure about that, there are plenty of episodes where knights dismounted and fought on foot.
How easy is communication when everyone’s wearing a closed-face helmet, obstructing both their speech and their hearing? And they’re probably winded, too, which doesn’t help matters.Tactics for leading men historically have not changed all that much over the years. If you study modern combat you will see the same trends that were important historically. Move fast, get around them; in a one on one fight, the first person who's friends arrive first, lives. Above all else, communication is key.
Well, I don't have as much practical experience as some folks here, but I do know quite a bit about the history of these kinds of things, even if I can't necessarily do them very well as of yet. I'll do my best to answer your questionsI apologize in advance for the wall of text, but I just stumbled upon this site and I want to make the most of such a powerful resource, so I have a ton of questions to ask.
I am an amateur writer, and my current project is fantasy-inspired, but only loosely. Definitely not Middle-earth, with the elves and the trolls and the wizards – think Arthurian England and you're closer to the mark. It’s not historical fiction, since it takes place in a totally original world, but I would still like to draw on historical precedent in order to lend it an air of credibility. I hate reading a novel in which the stone-jawed, taciturn hero rescues the buxom damsel by fighting off hordes of minions singlehandedly, chopping clean through their plate armor with his sword – my suspension of disbelief reaches a breaking point.
Since I have no legitimate experience in Western martial arts myself, I defer to this community, which appears to be the most knowledgeable I have found. I have a list of questions – and the list is huge, because they're questions that I've scribbled down over a long period, compiled here so I can ask them all at once. I certainly don't expect anyone to answer all of them, but if you the reader have sufficient knowledge to offer even a speculative opinion on one or two, you would be immensely helpful.
Again, my project is a mix of fantasy and reality – I don't claim to be writing a historical novel, but rather a sort of pseudo-fantasy that relies on real-world precedent in arms, armor, and fighting technique to make it more authentic.
You’ll see that the questions are organized into rough categories. If any of the questions need to be clarified, feel free to say so.
This isn't exactly yes nor is it exactly no - if you are having a sword made for you in the first place, chances are you would be ordering a piece fitted to your person (swords, historically, were out of the price range of 90% of the population, and only maybe 5%, the nobles [the other 5% being the clergy], would want to buy them anyway); chances are if you had the money for the sword, you'd have the money for a custom fitted one. That being said, we're perfectly able to get on with swords that are not custom made for us from modern manufacturers, so while a custom fit would be NICE, it's hardly necessary.Weapons
1. Is it important important for a weapon to be custom built for an individual? Would arms be forged to account for the prospective bearer's preference in weight, length, balance, etc? (To use an analogy: professional baseball players all use the same kind of bat, but the length, weight, shape, and even species of wood will vary from player to player according to preference.)
As mentioned, there is a precedent for using two rapiers, but that being said, it's generally held that using two full sized weapons like that is not very effective, even if you're ambidextrous to begin with. Far better to use two hands on one weapon, or put a shield/dagger/cloth in your off hand (or if not that, use it defensively or keep it well clear depending on if you're facing a thrusting or cutting weapon).2. I realize that there is no clear historical precedent for two-weapon fighting with anything bigger than a sword and dagger, but, based on modern research and experimentation, is that style at all feasible under any circumstances? How effective can it be?
It'd be about as big a disadvantage as you'd think it is to use a shorter weapon against a polearm. Very hard to close, but if you do manage it you pretty much win. The sword and shield tends to be better than the two handed sword assuming both parties are unarmored (which would NOT be the case - the reason you use a two handed weapon any shorter than a spear is specifically because you can rely on your armor to protect you without a shield!)3. How did a given style fare against other styles? That is to say, would a man fighting with an arming sword and heater have been at an inherent disadvantage against a man with a longsword? or a man with a polearm?
Knights tended against carrying the "peasant weapons". The flail, mace, morning star, axe.... very few knights would carry these as they were "below their station". We do occasionally read of a knight with a mace (many warrior monks come to mind, for instance), but by far their three primary weapons were the same weapons they ended up using in the tournament - the spear (eventually in the form of the lance), the sword, and the dagger.4. What weapons would a knight typically carry? Would he carry a sword but also a mace, for example, so that he is more versatile when he faces differently armored opponents? Would he always carry a dagger, either for general utility or to finish a downed opponent? (Obviously “knight” can mean any of a hundred diverse warriors from different eras and locations – but is there a general answer, however vague?)
Requiring to be light for cross country marches or in hazardous terrain, perhaps, and foregoing some pieces for specific mobility (many knights are depicted without gauntlets of any kind, probably for handling their weapons better). If you were just expecting to be riding into battle on a warhorse, or to be marching into battle in a big, grassy open field during the daytime in a temperate region, there would be very little reason to forego the majority of plate armor. Things like agincourt (knee deep mud), the crusades (blistering heat), or things like that could deter use of plate armor, but generally speaking you are MUCH better off in it than not.Armor
5. If plate armor is technologically available and, for a given person, financially affordable, would the person have any reason to not use it?
The general concept behind plate armor is wearing the shield on your body so it frees your other hand to put on your weapon, as I mentioned earlier. This lets a man fight on foot effectively protected while using a spear, or to use the two handed sword such as the longsword or greatsword while not having to worry so much about being an arrow pincushion without his trusty shield.6. If a man has access to full plate armor, is a shield obsolete? If so, what is the heaviest armor a man could wear that would still allow a shield to be viable and useful?
It wouldn't be senseless to do so, but it'd be considered a bit odd historically, assuming this person is bound for war and not a street brawl.7. Would it make sense for someone to prefer lighter armor and a shield rather than heavier armor and a two-handed weapon, or is the latter option so clearly superior it would be senseless to choose otherwise?
Depends on the weapon. Warhammers could often puncture plate with a good blow, and so missing a parry could be fatal, while most swords could not even under the most ideal conditions puncture a helmet or breastplate and so there would be little worry about simply dropping one's weapon and running in to grapple the person if they wanted.8. Would a man in plate armor be able to use his armor as a shield? That is, would he feel comfortable missing a parry, intentionally or otherwise, because he is confident that the opponent's weapon cannot damage his armor?
Firstly, maille is actually often about as heavy as plate armor is (the density of the rings is pretty extreme in order to be effective - a maille shirt is often about 25 pounds, near to the weight of a fairly thick breastplate and backplate). That being said, there are accounts of it being both ways. People would often wear the armor for eight hour stretches or more, and having trained in it for their whole lives I'm sure they wouldn't mind that badly having to wear it outside of battle. In fact, in the Roman era, chainmail was often kept clean by marching in it (it would self scrub clean of rust from the movement). I'm not exactly sure what the trend was, but I'm sure you could do it either way and it'd be fairly realistic.9. Is plate armor comfortable to wear over a long period of time, assuming that the wearer is not exerting himself? Or would he don his armor only immediately before he expects combat and then undress immediately after it's ended? What about mail and other lighter armor?
Running may be a bit awkward depending on how well fitted the plate is, but a good rule of thumb is that you can do in plate armor what you can do with a 50 pound backpack, properly supported by straps, and possibly even more than that given how well distributed the weight of the plate harness is. People can do cartwheels and pushups in plate armor no problem, I've even heard of people swimming in it (though I wouldn't trust myself quite that far, no matter how much I enjoy swimming, nor would I enjoy cleaning the armor after I was done!)10. What role does fitness play? How long can a man in plate or mail armor fight before he becomes winded, assuming he is well trained and well conditioned?
Generally it is possible, though getting some pieces on (such as the backplate) might be a bit difficult. Assistance makes it a LOT faster and a LOT easier, hence why knights liked having squires around. While we're on the subject, people who wear plate armor also don't suffer from "Help! I've fallen and I cannot get up!" like popular myth would have us believe.11. Could a man armor himself without assistance, even if it would take much longer than doing so with an aide?
Many people would argue about what is "best". With that in mind, any weapon that can pierce the armor (warhammer/maybe spear/poleaxe of some kind), bludgeon the user into submission, or exploit vulnerable positions in the armor (dagger/swordpoint/spearpoint et c.) will be effective. If you have a man pinned, just about any weapon will do regardless of armor.12. What is the best offense against plate armor: a polearm or some other weapon with reach; a blunt impact weapon; a pointed sword to thrust at armor gaps; or any weapon that allows you to knock your opponent down so that he can be grappled and killed? (Or some other option entirely?)
In fact we have a video of that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFD ... playnext=313. How easy is it to grapple or knock a man in plate armor to the ground so as to finish him off more easily (e.g., with a dagger)?
This was down to individual preference. Men often fought without a visor, though without the helmet entirely would probably have been unwise (would have presented too large and juicy a target for the other guy to just swing at like a maniac and hope to get lucky if nothing else).14. Would it ever be wise to go without a helmet so as to afford better breathing, heat dispersal, and sensory faculties at the expense of exposing your head?
I've unfortunately no knowledge of larger shield, such as heater shield, being properly documented. Most work into the area revolves around reinterpretation of duelling shield (as big as a person) and buckler (as big as a fist or slightly larger as you know) to more appropriately fit the traditional middle sized shield of the maille era.Shields
15. First, is there an Internet source for a good overview of sword-and-shield combat? It seems most articles I’ve found deal with sword and buckler, while I’m more interested in arming swords and round, kite, or heater shields.
No idea.16. Did all shields feature a guige? How was the guige used? I understand that it allowed a person to carry his shield outside of combat, but how was it used during combat? It seems unwieldy and awkward for a leather strap to be hanging unsecured during the heat of battle.
Likely preference, much as was whether you rimmed your shield or not. (A metal rim prevents decay of the shield, but no metal rim means that enemy weapons will bite into your shield, allowing you to rip them away or delay their actions as they remove their weapon giving you an opening to strike).17. If a man has access to any shield style – heater, kite, round, buckler, etc. – would one style offer a clear and definite advantage over all others, or would his choice be largely a matter of preference?
I'm honestly not sure about this, either. The wrestling was generally nonlethal, obviously (much harder to kill with hands than with weapons, hence the invention of weapons), and I suppose that tournaments would often end after a set number of blows (much like arranged combats of other types) or once one man was pinned to ground (obviously he would have lost, being able to be dispatched easily with a dagger).General Combat
18. Is there a method of combat that is non-lethal? For example, I imagine that the melee at a medieval tournament would be non-lethal (though probably very brutal and ugly). If so, how is the winner of a match determined – is it as simple as knocking the other guy out cold? How frequent were accidental deaths?
Probably not unlike your typical street brawl today, except with more skilled combatants, but otherwise I'm at a loss for this one.19. What would group combat look like? Not in the sense of two massive armies clashing, but rather a group of maybe five to ten elite fighters facing a force of similar size and skill. What tactics would each sides use? What sort of arms and armor would the participants bear? I’ve read all about combat between armies of grunts, and all about single combat between two knights, but I don’t know if there is a historical model for combat between two small groups like this, so I guess the answer would be mostly speculative.
Depends on skill, armor, and luck. Completely unarmored fights could often last several minutes as each side was apprehensive about their own safety and tentative to engage while others could just be as short as both drawing swords, instantly cutting, and one guy winning. Really depends.20. How long might a typical single or small-group combat (as in #19) last? Does one guy smack the other guy with a sword and it’s all over, or is it a more drawn-out affair?
As much as it is today in any fight. Strength is, frankly, important. It lets you do things that other people cannot do, and some techniques even explicitly call for you to be stronger than your opponent (I believe there is one in Ringeck that mentions if you are stronger at the sword than your opponent appreciably then you can simply just blow through your opponent's guard and kill him).21. For a knight/warrior/whatever, what is the relative value of strength, size, and other brute power compared to skill, agility, battle savvy, vision of the field, etc?
Generally I'd say no, unless he has built a large reputation for himself, and that would probably be "wow this guy is really damn good! He must be X!" rather than "wow, it's the dragon twister strike (or other "distinct move" of the author's choosing :p), it must be X!"22. Could an individual’s fighting style be so distinctive that he could be identified even in the absence of other signals? Imagine that his armor completely disguises his features and build, and that he doesn’t bear a coat of arms.
Speaking as somebody whose primary training partner is left handed, I can say that both parties will be a lot less safe (the left handed one probably more so because he's trained against right handed people, but not many people have trained against left handed people). That being said, back then, left handedness was even less incident than it is today, and ambidexterity was probably just as nearly unheard of as it is today (though the fighting man may be close to this, having trained both of his hands to war, as it were).23. What is the incidence of ambidexterity? With enough practice, could it be self-taught? Would a fighter meeting an opponent who is ambidextrous or left-handed be at a disadvantage, since he is more familiar with attacks by a right-handed opponent?
You've pretty much got that right. Without some kind of mobility or terrain advantage (they're fighting in a grassy field, for instance) the armored man would basically have to keep giving ground in an attempt to keep his opponents in front of him, and keep killing them in an attempt to cow them off of attacking him, otherwise he will tire quicker than the group (being more than 1 person they can always rotate out who is fighting) and eventually be overwhelmed. This matter, as you've so clearly demonstrated, can probably be left down to common judgment.24. Imagine a very talented, well trained knight clad in plate armor and wielding a longsword or other effective weapon: how many "lesser" opponents - poorly trained, poorly armored, etc - might he be able to handle at once? What method might he use to improve his chances? At some point, does it just become a matter of mobbing him and wrestling him to the ground, no matter how well-armored he is?
Return to “Research and Training Discussion”
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 225 guests
|
|
|||
|
|
|||
|
|||