Swimming in armor

[Corey Roberts]

Well, here is a nice historical example for you to ponder. Muzio Attendolo Sforza, Condottiere and father of the famous Condottiere and Duke of Milan, Francesco Sforza , died when he fell from his horse in full plate while trying to cross a river. After falling off his horse into the river while wearing full harness he simply drowned. Swimming in armour does not to me seem to be very substantiated by the historical record.

[Stacy Clifford]

Well, here is a nice historical example for you to ponder. Muzio Attendolo Sforza, Condottiere and father of the famous Condottiere and Duke of Milan, Francesco Sforza , died when he fell from his horse in full plate while trying to cross a river. After falling off his horse into the river while wearing full harness he simply drowned. Swimming in armour does not to me seem to be very substantiated by the historical record.

If the water was shallow enough for a horse to wade through, I wonder what prevented him from simply standing up. Does it mention the river conditions at all? Not slow and placid, I would assume, unless the fall injured him somehow.

[Corey Roberts]

The water conditions were described as turbulent and rather foreboding. Much of Muzio's army was initially unwilling to attempt the crossing but he rode out to lead them on. After Muzio rode out to encourage them, the army began to cross, supposedly one of the paiges ran into difficulty and Muzio rode over next to him to assist him. While reaching down to aid the paige from on top of his horse, the horse supposedly lost footing and fell into the water momentarily, the horse came back up without Muzio, and Muzio then drowned in the river.

[Matt Bryant]

Check this out:
Waistcoat Corselet (torso defense) with Pauldrons (shoulder defenses), for use in combat on ship

http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/ ... mulR=28910

There is a little audio clip that discusses it and you can zoom in a see what the guy is talking about. Some things he doesn't mention are the two swing hooks that fasten the front, and the reason it could be easily opened. I believe that was made so that it could be quickly removed if van Unckel fell off his ship.

Pretty cool piece, I thought.

[Phil Valot]

The only time I ever heard of someone drowning wearing armour is the myth about the Forget-me-not flower.

Legend has it that in medieval times, a knight and his lady were walking along the side of a river. He picked a posy of flowers, but because of the weight of his armour he fell into the river. As he was drowning he threw the posy to his loved one and shouted "Forget-me-not". This is a flower connected with romance and tragic fate. It was often worn by ladies as a sign of faithfulness and enduring love.

[s_taillebois]

The only time I ever heard of someone drowning wearing armour is the myth about the Forget-me-not flower.

Legend has it that in medieval times, a knight and his lady were walking along the side of a river. He picked a posy of flowers, but because of the weight of his armour he fell into the river. As he was drowning he threw the posy to his loved one and shouted "Forget-me-not". This is a flower connected with romance and tragic fate. It was often worn by ladies as a sign of faithfulness and enduring love.

Good observation as it brings up the intensely symbolic and superstitious nature of the medieval and Renn. mind.

Cultural belief could be another factor in whether or not armored elite were training or swimming about under various circumstances. In Beowulf one of the reasons he spent so much time underwater was it was a means to show he was a hero. In the pre-Christian northern European culture deep or murky waters such as lakes, rivers or bogs were often viewed as the venue of local gods, demons and the like, so to enter them would have been considered risky in and of itself. That's one of the reasons so many swords have been found in bogs and rivers, they were probably tossed there as a means of offering or propagating these spirits. Arthur's sword was sort of a reverse of that condition, him being Arthur of course he could deal with such dangerous powers.

Taking that out several centuries, there is a good chance these beliefs did have some lingering effect on the knights, and yeomanry of the Christian period. Even under extreme situations they may have been reluctant to be entering into certain waters, likely fearing a hypothetical doom more than the real one. What happened at Towton for example, may have been influenced by those superstitions as much as the crowding and general chaos and the fact a high proportion of these men likely could not swim.

Have to recall the arms men of the period this group studies were incredibly superstitious by modern standards, doing such things as carrying hag-stones, beseeching various patron saints, and openly seeking omens before battles. Local superstitions about some rivers and other bodies of water might have had a substantial effect on their behavior.

Training may also have been influenced by such things, as the fechtbuchs themselves are laced with religious ideas. And even the uber fighters of the period had some trouble counteracting what in modern sense are superstitions. For example one of the things which may have gotten the Templar's in trouble may have been rituals intended to desensitize them to misuse of Christian symbols should they be captured by the Muslims.

[CalebChow]

Arthur's sword was sort of a reverse of that condition, him being Arthur of course he could deal with such dangerous powers.

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords to people is no basis for a system of government!"

[Phil Valot]

For example one of the things which may have gotten the Templar's in trouble may have been rituals intended to desensitize them to misuse of Christian symbols should they be captured by the Muslims.

That was a rumor....

In October 2007, the 700th anniversary of the arrest of the Templars, the Vatican released a document called Processus Contra Templarios. The most important manuscript in the document collection is the "Chinon Parchment," which contains Pope Clement V's absolution of the Templars on charges of heresy, which had been the backbone of King Philip of France's attempts to eliminate them.

[s_taillebois]

For example one of the things which may have gotten the Templar's in trouble may have been rituals intended to desensitize them to misuse of Christian symbols should they be captured by the Muslims.

That was a rumor....

In October 2007, the 700th anniversary of the arrest of the Templars, the Vatican released a document called Processus Contra Templarios. The most important manuscript in the document collection is the "Chinon Parchment," which contains Pope Clement V's absolution of the Templars on charges of heresy, which had been the backbone of King Philip of France's attempts to eliminate them.

True, ironically a contemporary mention of that rumor (in a modern book) was in the text written by the female historian who was working within Vatican archives-so the Vatican had some influence of approval for that book. Clement took a appalling amount of time to react to Phillip of France, and did so quite ineffectively so its not all that surprising the document was lost in the Vatican archives.

Back the the swimming in armor situation, perhaps some of the ARMA contingent in Europe could check on local legends regarding bodies of water close to some of the battlefields such as Towton or Bannockburn. (Incidentally Templar's were by legend with the Scots at Bannockburn. Not likely in large numbers as the Scots were under church excommunication and the Templars were already dissolved...but possible a few were there).

[Hans Meier]

http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digl ... rrent_page



hope that answeres the question.

heers, Hans.

[CalebChow]

Ooo, very interesting. Medieval flotation device!

[Andy Hall]

Hello ladies and gents! Knew I'd seen a mention of swimming in armour somewhere, without it necessarily being accepted at face value. Dio Cassius is referring to the Batavi tribe (I believe?) in this passage:

"The barbarians thought that Romans would not be able to cross it without a bridge, and consequently bivouacked in rather careless fashion on the opposite bank; but he sent across a detachment of Germanic tribesmen, who were accustomed to swim easily in full armour across the most turbulent streams. (Cassius Dio, Roman History, Book 60:20"

And Syrian soldier Syranus epitaph from AD118: "The man who, once very well known to the ranks in Pannonia, brave and foremost among one thousand Batavians, was able, with Hadrian as judge, to swim the wide waters of the deep Danube in full battle kit"

(Apologies for the apalling referencing, I dont have my books with me and so these were filched from online texts)

However as that Batavi were as I understand it, largely a Cavalry unit I seem to recall that the method has been explained as several soldiers swimming in their kit alongside a horse or wading horseman, using them as a float. Still, mighty impressive I'd say.

Fascinating stuff!

[Webmaster]

Andy H, please edit your username in your profile to your full first and last name in accordance with our forum rules.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Did these people ever learn how to swim? I know from experience that living with a lot water does not necessary mean you know how to swim, and in Europe it didn't rain and flood like in the jungles of Southeast Asia and South America. In the Amazon rain forest, when it rains and floods, I think it is usually a lot deeper than two story house. But, still....not everybody in Thailand and in South America knows how to swim! lol there are a lot of drowing cases in Thailand when I was living there. Perhaps they should taught their armies how to swim...!

[Sal Bertucci]

Swimming by itself isn't terribly hard, but throw on 3-60lbs of armor and 10-15lbs of wet clothes and that tends to make it more difficult.