Safely incorporating thrusting into sparring

[CalebChow]

The only time my group ever allows thrusts to the face are if we're using padded weapons.
Long story short, I hate padded weapons but I love being able to stab with the point.

Are there particular tools/precautions anyone here takes and allows thrusts to the face? I've seen several groups use a very bendy federschwert, but I wonder if those are actually good to use...

[Stacy Clifford]

In Houston we allow them with both wasters and steel as long as masks are worn, but you of course have to practice good control to avoid hitting too hard with them. I've never seen anyone here suffer more than a dented mask and a waffle pattern from a face thrust in ten years (knock on wood), but you do have to watch for low ones sneaking under the bib of a fencing mask. My best advice for practicing relatively safe thrusts is to get most of your extension and speed out of your legs (deep lunges) and let your upper body and arms be relatively relaxed -- tight enough to control your aim, but loose enough to give when hitting the target while still keeping proper form. People will still get popped pretty good, but it works to avoid serious injuries. Try it on the pell first.

[Joshua Welsh]

Dido to what Stacy said. We've never had anyone injured beyond a small bruise in our study group from a thrust (excluding one black eye from a waster, wear masks!). We mostly use Albion Lichtenaurs.

That being said, we don't intentionally drill each other with the points, and if I'm thrusting from a distance I tend to target the mask for my partner's safety. Up close and in a bind I will thrust to other areas (though I avoid the throat) as it's a bit easier to meter the power I put into it.

Basically, you have to be conscious of what you're doing just like with anything else. Thrusts have the potential to be more dangerous than cuts, but are rarely so with a good feder. And, while I understand avoiding them for safety, I personally think you miss a large part of the art if you do not practice them.

Josh Welsh
ARMA QC

[Sal Bertucci]

The other thing to be aware of if thrusting to a fencing mask is that if you hit it hard enough it pushes the bottom of the mask into the larynx. This is pretty uncomfortable, but no permanent damage. So you can either accept the risk, or get one of the Revival padded gorgets for like $16.

I stab people in the face. Even given the risks it is extremely safe, and gets people's attention. I also feel that you're hurting yourself by disallowing thrusts to the face. Especially if you're studying Liect b/c so much of his techniques revolve around stabbing people in the face.

As a matter of fact. I feel that anytime you remove a technique you're doing yourself and your partner a disservice.

[Gene Tausk]

The other thing to be aware of if thrusting to a fencing mask is that if you hit it hard enough it pushes the bottom of the mask into the larynx. This is pretty uncomfortable, but no permanent damage. So you can either accept the risk, or get one of the Revival padded gorgets for like $16.

I stab people in the face. Even given the risks it is extremely safe, and gets people's attention. I also feel that you're hurting yourself by disallowing thrusts to the face. Especially if you're studying Liect b/c so much of his techniques revolve around stabbing people in the face.

As a matter of fact. I feel that anytime you remove a technique you're doing yourself and your partner a disservice.

Stacy, Joshua and Sal have answered this question perfectly. Fully agree with Sal that although getting stabbed in the face (with control, of course, and while wearing face protection) is not fun, it does wake you up. Also, as Sal stated, you are doing yourself and, more importantly, your partner an extreme disservice if you negate this historically accurate and fundamental part of sparring.

It can be done, it can be done safely, and needs to be done. However, as Stacy said, control has to be used.

[CalebChow]

I stab people in the face. Even given the risks it is extremely safe, and gets people's attention. I also feel that you're hurting yourself by disallowing thrusts to the face. Especially if you're studying Liect b/c so much of his techniques revolve around stabbing people in the face.

On that note, was it Meyer that said something about thrusting being used in the "ancient art" but not in his time? Is there any reason for that change?

[Joshua Welsh]

On that note, was it Meyer that said something about thrusting being used in the "ancient art" but not in his time? Is there any reason for that change?

Well, Meyer's work was a bit school fighting oriented. He taught and fought in a guild, and as far as I know, never saw action on the battle field. He probably made the concession to not allow thrusts because he thought it was a safer way to train. Now, I don't agree with that personally, but I understand it. You also have to keep in mind that a lot of Meyer techniques ignore the possibility of a thrust at all.

Now, I don't dislike Meyer, in fact I've learned a lot from studying his work. But you do have to keep in mind he had a different perspective. It's not uncommon among the masters, as they were human and all had different opinions and view points. Silver hated Rapier with severe prejudice, for example.

Josh
ARMA QC

[Sal Bertucci]

Actually that's not quite true. Meyer, while heading a fight school, and trained men for war.

According to local rules thrusting was prohibited (For safety reasons), but many of Meyer's techniques could easily be modified to a person in a real fight for thrusts. Especially when you leave the more heavily sportified longsword and dussack sections. When looking at the rapier and staff sections it becomes quite obvious that Meyer knew how/when to thrust.

[CalebChow]

I also noticed that Meyer is one of the manuals that shows the flanged federschwerts being used.

I've seen various groups use a fairly bendy version of that and sometimes even put a rubber knob on the tip and thrust with fairly good results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ad7les38fw

Do the historical federschwerts bend on impact like this vid? I got the impression that the Albion Meyers were just about as stiff as the Liechtenauer.

[Greg Coffman]

The Meyer is almost as stiff as the Liechtenauer, but not quite. Good question about whether historical feders were flexible. I'd like to know that too.

When I was new to ARMA and had not yet developed good control, I thrusted with a waster at somebody wearing a fencing mask and it dented the mask to the point that it pushed back onto his face and bloodied his brow above his eye. I felt pretty bad about it. Even with masks there is no substitute for control.

Seems like the restriction on thrusting for J. Meyer was a German law. Germans were not supposed to stab other Germans. Seems like they could thrust against other peoples. Of course, Meyer goes on to use plenty of thrusting in the rapier and staff section. So how that law was applied and enforced is not quite clear.

On a lighter side, I'm thinking about using this as my new signature:
"I stab people in the face." - Sal Bertucci

[Doug Marnick]

My concern from that video is when he says the newer model of Hanwei has the "...same level of flex, but only within the last several inches of the blade, just as it's done in MODERN FENCING SWORDS" [emphasis mine]. This should not be considered a quality unless it matches historical accuracy.
How did historical feders flex in comparison to these models Hanwei is trying to replicate? I'd also wager Albion has it right.

[Andrew Weems]

An interesting thread.

[Greg Coffman]

My concern from that video is when he says the newer model of Hanwei has the "...same level of flex, but only within the last several inches of the blade, just as it's done in MODERN FENCING SWORDS" [emphasis mine]. This should not be considered a quality unless it matches historical accuracy.

Ehhh. Flexing more at the tip is better than flexing badly throughout the length of the blade. Albion doesn't get it right every time, and they are not above occasionallygiving less serious HEMA customers what they want instead of upholding high historical standards. And not all modern inventions are bad. We use fencing masks...

*high five to Andrew