Clawing attacks in Ringen and in other HEMA ?

[Sripol Asanasavest]

IDK... You know... Muay Thai fighters now practice Brazilian juijut-su probably because of the possibility of being grab by surprise. I guess all these stuff might come in handy. But I know you guys think Brazilian juijut-su is not very effective in real life combats and fights. So....

[Stacy Clifford]

Most specialized martial arts are not completely effective in the real world by themselves precisely because they are specialized. Specialization is fine in the ring where there are ground rules, but on the street, to paraphrase Forrest Gump, "A fight is like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gonna get." You can adapt to that by learning multiple specialized arts, like jiu-jutsu and muay thai, or a single more well rounded one like ringen or krav maga. We're not against other martial arts here, just the limitations some of them put on themselves in the modern world. Older arts forged in a more dangerous world see to generally harbor fewer such illusions.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Forgive me! I'm just skeptical that is all.... I've heard of a lot of people saying this and that and when it came to fighting for real, they failed miserably. Granted it may be in the ring...with rules...they just failed horribly and ridiculously, and didn't put up any real fight. I'm talking about other martial artists talking trash about Muay Thai... Most of them loose badly even with the restrictions against using the elbows, and other hard parts of the body with a lot of mass. Of course their is a sport version of Muay Thai and the more brutal stuff that they actually used in wars for hundreds of years. I just like to see some of these RM artists going up against the MMA fighters in a more full contact sport to see how they fair when the adrinlin is pumping through the veins.

And with all fairness Muay Thai fighters are also taught to be adaptable, looking for opponents' weakness and opening. It comes in handy going up against someone who is stronger and faster, and better than you, or when your life is dependent upon it when the odds are against you and you have to fight. Let's face it! You might come across someone who can really hurt or kill you...

[Joshua Cook]

I'll grant you, Muay Thai is a great style. I practiced it myself for a little while. Among striking arts, I would say that it is one of the best in the world.

That being said, we have to be realistic here. Every fighting art, regardless of style, has flaws. Muay Thai is a striking art, which means it has little grappling involved. Get a solid grappler in there who can shoot in quickly, or is simply tough enough to withstand a couple punches and kicks, and you've got a Muay Thai fighter that's in trouble.

Also, on continuing from a previous post, a determined man is not easily turned from his course of action. He will likely not turn from attacking you simply because of pain. In most cases you have to cause injuries, not simple pain, to force an attacker to stop.

BTW, historically, Muay Thai also made use of eye gouges and other clawing/gouging attacks in real combat when appropriate. These attacks were cast aside when sportive Muay Thai became dominate.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I'm just saying there are other options besides eye gouging... Punching someone on the bridge of the nose in fight can be very disconcerting and extremely painful to the attacker...at least it offers some distraction, so you can move in to finish them off. And lips have a lot of nerve ending....

And, historically, jui-jut-su and judo and other form of grapplings didn't fair well against Muay Thai fighters either. It was just recently that Brazilian jui-jut-su has proven to be effective against Muay Thai fighters. That is why Muay Thai fighters also now practice BJJ. But most of the good MMA fighters actually can strike very well, but they also know how to grapple. They just strike the opponents with lightning speed and then move in for the choke hold, or other submission techniques, if the strike did not knock them unconscious.

[Sal Bertucci]

Of course there are other options! There are always a plethora of options, yet there will always be times when some are better then others given a specific circumstance.

However, this topic wasn't about which options were better. It was about the existence of clawing attacks in the manuals. And while I understand the need to defend the style you practice, I find you bringing the chip on your shoulder unnecessary since no a single person brought up Muay Thai(much less any of it's weaknesses) until you did.

Oh, and I also congratulate you on your ability to dent in a sheetrock wall.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

You may be right! Maybe I let pride and prejudice get in the way.... But, you can end going to jail for going overboard...gouging someone's eye, or eyes. Well...maybe if someone unexpectedly jumped you and you thought your life was in danger. But, what if it were a scuffle?

[Vagelis Baltatzis]

Hallo Joshua Cook thanks for the informations ....

Hallo Sripol Asanasavest yes indeed muai thai is a very good and effective art , but I feel that you are a little fanatic with muai thai and generally ''hard'' techniques....

I never say ''hard'' techniques are not effective or that ''soft'' techniques are in all situations better than the ''old classic punch'' ..


If you are fanatic with a style of fighting than you will be rigid.... Hard and soft techniques are both very good and in some situations you will hit with a elbow and in others you will eyegouging ...

If you are trained in eyegouging and in lacerate than it is relative easy to slash human flesh...

It is not very clever to limit your natural fighting potential only to the art you train....( and I think that the old muai boran styles had also clawing and lacerate techniques)

Besides of them this topic is about ''soft'' (clawing,ripping,lacerate etc. ) techniques of Ringen.

[Sal Bertucci]

You may be right! Maybe I let pride and prejudice get in the way.... But, you can end going to jail for going overboard...gouging someone's eye, or eyes. Well...maybe if someone unexpectedly jumped you and you thought your life was in danger. But, what if it were a scuffle?

I definitely would gouge out someones eyes in any plain one on one scuffle. But if things are dangerously stacked then that card goes out the window.

[RayMcCullough]

I'm willing to bet that if you found the origin of Muay Thai, you would find wrestling and weapons.

Can anyone find a Martial Art(not Martial Sports) anywhere in the world, before 1600, that did not teach weapons first and then unarmed from weapons training?

Good Luck!

[Sripol Asanasavest]

They did use weapons...actually as the primary weapons in war. What happened, from what I've read, is that Thai kingdoms were surrounded by hostile enemies. If you look at the map of Southeast Asia, Thailand is right smack in the middle of other countries. They were looking for ways to improve the fighting capability of their troops just like the way we trained our troops now a day and probably to toughen them up both physically and mentally. This was especially true during the threat of western powers. I think also often time you get caught in a battle unexpectedly over there. They like to use a lot of hit and run tactic, or gorilla warfare, instead of facing the enemies face to face on the chosen and preferred battlefields.

No one knows for sure what kind of warfare strategies they used back in those days. They don't even know how they use elephants. All the stuff you see in Thailand is a recreation, and may not be how they used elephants. A lot of this stuff went up smoke, when the Burmese sacked Ayothaya and burned the city down to ashes.... What's left is how they trained their soldiers to fight. They did also use quite a bit of armors, but to what degree, I don't think anybody knows for sure.

[Vagelis Baltatzis]

Hallo Sripol many nations and cultures used also guerilla hit and run tactics...

As example the ancient Celts and the Germanics . They fought beside of the open field also in raids and guerilla wars....

but please the topic is not addicted to warfare of the Thais or generally in warfare ....



best regards

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Hmmm.... That is very interesting! I never knew Europeans use the tactics....

I know, at least in Southeast Asian, the hit and run tactics were developed because against an overwhelming forces, sometimes 5 to 1...even 10 to 1, it could be difficult to beat the enemies, that were just as well armed with weapons and armors and also well versed in the art of war, or maybe even better. Besides! We got a lot of dense undergrowth and foliage to hide and stay out sight! lol

[Joshua Cook]

The French during the Hundred Year's War also had to use guerilla tactics against the English due to overwhelming odds as well. While the English didn't outnumber them, they had superior firepower (the longbow) and trained more frequently in its use.

[Stacy Clifford]

Besides! We got a lot of dense undergrowth and foliage to hide and stay out sight! lol

Remember that most of Europe used to be heavily forested long ago. Not as dense as tropical jungle, but plenty good enough for surprise attacks. Mountain terrain is very good for that as well.