ARMA Inducted into the World Martial Arts Union

[Hans Meier]

Hans,

What I find amusing is the statement that "Europeans" fill offended because someone made the homework for them, took the effort for them, took the risks and was invited to present the "Just Cause" for our Art for them, was successful, and was invited to take part...

You know very little. For whom did the ARMA/JC do their homework? It is more the other way around...

It just sounds awful for you to say that "Europeans" are enraged... and not substanciating as to why, the reason... what is the cause of the fire?

Reason was given, not only by me but by other posters here, read the thread!

Is this difficult to understand?

Obviously, because you don't seem to...

Open a new thread on this topic, and point where you say it is contaminated, so not to derail this thread... I have never seen in any of the ARMA vids that we use stuff outside MARE... please show proof...

No. I mentioned it here Because it is relevant here and because I can't differentiate between official ARMA releases and unofficial material and the context the videos were made in. But if you assume a "MARE" context you can see contamination in almost every single ARMA video. You go ahead and do your homework now...

Tournaments in ARMA? do you refer to prize playings perhaps? way different than tournaments...

Yes, waaay different.

[Sal Bertucci]

Mr. Meier,

While I while I disagree with your reasons for being upset. (Some more than others) I recognize and validate your right to be offended.

However, as was mentioned earlier there seems to be no point continuing this conversation as both sides are intractable.

As such, I suggest all current and future parties cease commenting to avoid the continuation of degeneration of behavior on this thread.

[Gene Tausk]

Everyone can just knock it off or this thread will be locked. If anyone is "offended" by ARMA selected for WoMAU, go to South Korea and take it up there or go the UN and file a complaint (and good luck with THAT route).

Any more nonsense and the thread is locked. Period.

[Jorge Cortines]

Hans,

What I find amusing is the statement that "Europeans" fill offended because someone made the homework for them, took the effort for them, took the risks and was invited to present the "Just Cause" for our Art for them, was successful, and was invited to take part...

You know very little. For whom did the ARMA/JC do their homework? It is more the other way around...

It just sounds awful for you to say that "Europeans" are enraged... and not substanciating as to why, the reason... what is the cause of the fire?

Reason was given, not only by me but by other posters here, read the thread!

Is this difficult to understand?

Obviously, because you don't seem to...

Open a new thread on this topic, and point where you say it is contaminated, so not to derail this thread... I have never seen in any of the ARMA vids that we use stuff outside MARE... please show proof...

No. I mentioned it here Because it is relevant here and because I can't differentiate between official ARMA releases and unofficial material and the context the videos were made in. But if you assume a "MARE" context you can see contamination in almost every single ARMA video. You go ahead and do your homework now...

Tournaments in ARMA? do you refer to prize playings perhaps? way different than tournaments...

Yes, waaay different.

Mr H. Meier,

You are free to feel how you choose on this matter, and you are free to do as you like with this issue... I have read your reasons, I don't share your point of view nor the way you address it, you were given space if you wanted to add something so as for me to try to understand you to find a common ground from which to work from bothsides... Your answers have satisfied me, I do not find any common ground by you insulting me, nor I find common ground with your reasons. As well I'm free to choose not to continue discussing where there it seems is no common ground and no intention to find it...

Also I can understand you write being emotional (or not) on all this matter but accusing of contaminating and not being able to show evidence is not a good approach to make a point or to find common ground...

I'm satisfied and do not find common ground to continue a discussion with you on this matter... Have a nice day!

Gene/Sal, no need to lock the thread, I will not be reading it, I lost interest in this thread nor I'll be posting in it anymore...

[Randall Pleasant]

This is true, and to understand how the Europeans feel you need to look at it from a prospective of being ‘outside ARMA.’ What is kind of an obvious thing that occurs to the Europeans is that ARMA, which may be international, is an organization originated and largely based in the US and has been selected to represent the martial arts of Europe. This is similar to a US based Karate organization being selected to represent the martial arts of Japan, or a Peruvian organization selected to represent the martial arts of Mexico. This can be offensive to the groups in Europe who are working on their own arts.

Jonathan

One thing that must be understood is that we are dealing with matial arts that were completely lost to Europe. Everyone is working on recreating these arts. That means that no one has a historical claim on these arts. For example, someone born in Germany with full knowledge of the modern German language cannot claim some special insight into Liechtenauer or Meyer. The work in America and other non-European countries on recreating these arts are just as valid as any work being done in Europe. The only measure of validity is what ARMA has always held itself to: Is an interpretation historically valid and martially sound. If this is offensive to any groups in Europe then so be it - their outraged is their problem, not ours.

The one thing I hope (I can only hope this is taken with a grain of salt) is that this honor will help ARMA as a whole realize the need to make sure everything that comes out of the Directors office is run through a PR person first.

I cannot speak to what degree John Clements considers PR. However, I can say John Clements has never lets PR and group hugs get in the way of the truth. ARMA is about recreating these lost arts to the best of its abilities and presenting those arts to the public. This is why ARMA was inducted into the World Martial Arts Union. There is no organization more fit to represent these arts in the World Martial Arts Union than is ARMA. There is no person more fit to represent these arts in the World Martial Arts Union than is John Clements.

[Jonathan Hill]

Frankly I am American, which means I don’t really care. Second the research to uncover these lost arts is independent of the ‘cultural heritage of that people,’ and such research can be done anywhere. I’ll give an example based off Jorge’s example of the British Finding Greek history. Just because the British found it does not mean that the Greeks don’t want to be the ones to display their own history. Currently we have Italy suing in international court to get back many of the items on display in museums around the world.

I agree being German will not help understand the arts. I’ll never deny the contributions ARMA has made and I’ll even support that if any group has a right to be recognized it is ARMA. At the same time ARMA is not German and the cultural heritage of the Germans is one of the aspects being studied and re-constructed, yet most likely not by people of German heritage. If the Germans choose to be offended by a group in Korea recognizing a group in America for the work on German cultural heritage, over any group in German I can understand that they are offended and why, regardless of merit.

PR is the art of stating those truths and facts in a way that makes everyone feel good, and those who are looking to get angry at you more angry.

[william_cain_iii]

Someone from Germany may not have an 'innate' insight into German fencing material, but someone who has been immersed in the German language from birth, who has grown up with its idiom and peculiarities of use, will certainly have more insight into the linguistic construction of a language that has strong etymological ties to their own.

As a case in point the Man yt Wol, a poem very near to the spirit of the medieval English texts, has the admonition "And say godspeed." On the one hand this could be taken literally, but when I mentioned it to my friends in England they took it as part of the long, long-standing English tradition of sarcasm and wit, which we can see today and far back in English literature such as Chaucer or Shakespeare.

Just a bit more insight into the matter. I despise the UN in general, so I'll refrain from commenting on the WOMAU thing.

[Stacy Clifford]

I understand wanting to represent the culture you were born into, it's only natural. I'm an American and a Texan and certainly proud of it. At the same time though, people with my last name have a thousand-year written history in England. I train regularly with people named Schmidt, Wagner, Augenthaler, and Bertucci, just to list a few. Clements is the anglicized version of the Italian Clemente. America is a nation derived from European roots, and we take pride in that as well. To suggest that we as Americans have no business representing the heritage that gave birth to us is a bit presumptuous and selfish, in my opinion. If you want to argue against us for other reasons, fine, talk until you're blue in the face, but reasons based on ethnicity aren't going to hold any water around here.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Quite frankly that organization does not seem to be something I'd be proud to be part of in its current state.

First it means to be recognized as just as serious as these guys:
http://womau.org/xe/netherlands
Good news indeed

There are a bunch of martial arts missing right now, far more serious and culturally significant.

Second it seems to be organized by country. Which country does the ARMA represent? Poland, it seems... I can't even begin to understand how this is possible or representative of the tradition. If I were polish I'd sure be upset too, and I don't think ARMA even enjoys an especially dominant position in Poland either (especially seeing this).

In the status of the organization you can find this:

In case where there are more than one national organization in a country each representing the unique tradition of martial arts distinct from the other's, such organizations may become member independently. The additional membership application under this sub-paragraph from a country which already has one member or more shall be accompanied by the written consent of the member(s) from that country. When there is no member from a country yet and more than one such organization file applications simultaneously, a mutual consent in writing shall be presented along with their applications.

So what this nomination does is appoint the ARMA and its American director as the representative of Polish martial arts, with the full power to prevent any other Polish organization from joining. On par with a bunch of modern constructions and a good measure of modern sports meaninglessly sorted by countries. Unless the organization is totally revamped this does not add any legitimacy to what the craft already had, and will only feed the criticism from other groups.

Regards,

[Stacy Clifford]

No, we are not trying to represent Poland in particular (we also have a very active chapter in Greece, by the way). We would not try to represent this art as anything less than pan-European, since that is how we see it with most national traditions having more commonalities than differences. While I am not privy to all the details, apparently this was considered allowable despite whatever the current structure appears to be, and I don't know that it necessarily precludes other organizations from representing their individual national traditions. Perhaps something will come of it, perhaps it won't, we'll just have to wait and see, but the opportunity was there and John decided not to pass it up. We've always taken the big picture, multinational approach to this art though, and I don't see why you would expect us to do anything different now.

[Allen Johnson]

Yeah thats the thing I don't get. If ARMA presence is the WoMAU is so offensive, then rally your group and go to them to gain representation and "set things straight" if that's what you feel needs to be done. ARMA's decisions have no relevance on what you decide to do or pursue. So rather than complain...let's see action.