The Estoc

[CalebChow]

Anyone know of a good manufacturer that makes replicas of the Estoc (aka Tuck)? I've suddenly taken an interest in this anti-armor weapon for some reason and it seems like Albion doesn't make one (not that I'd be able to afford an Albion anyway...)

In addition, am I correct to assume that its application is basically the same as a longsword although focused on thrusting/halfsword?

[william_cain_iii]

Look at Albion's Munich.

Basically an Estoc, from what I can tell.

[Stacy Clifford]

In addition, am I correct to assume that its application is basically the same as a longsword although focused on thrusting/halfsword?

Basically yes, as long as it has a decent amount of edge on it. I saw one in Spain that was basically a 4-ft. railroad spike with a square cross section. Getting "cut" by that would be more like getting hit with a crowbar, so I doubt it got used that way very much, but it was definitely on the highly specialized end of the spectrum.

[CalebChow]

Look at Albion's Munich.

Basically an Estoc, from what I can tell.

Er...I'm looking for something maybe 1/10 that price, but thanks.

Since an estoc blade isn't really a "blade" I'd imagine it'd be significantly easier to make and therefore be much cheaper...

I think Windlass used to sell one, but they've discontinued it apparently.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Look at Albion's Munich.

Basically an Estoc, from what I can tell.

I've had the opportunity to see an Albion Munich from close, and it's definitely not an estoc in my book. This thing is sharp...

For me an estoc is the specialized sword described by Stacy, that has absolutely no edge at all.

Perhaps the closest approximation on the market today would be a very rigid training sword?

Regards,

[Stacy Clifford]

From what I've seen in the past, I think an estoc can have some edge to it, but the defining feature is a very thick and pronounced spine (riser) to make it rigid enough for thrusting at armor. The blade part could be little more than window dressing to make it look like a noble sword instead of a sharp stick with a hilt on it, but some at least have a triangular shape to them. Actually if you've ever played much with half-swording, you've probably noticed that sometimes when the point is wedged under or over the wrist in certain ways, the edge acts like a pair of scissors against the trapped hand. Then there are all the times that the blade winds up pressed against the neck. I think I would want to keep an edge on my estoc just for those benefits, even if it were relatively useless for standard cutting.

[Ian Mac Pharlaine]

Interested in the prevailence and use of the estoc as well. Since it is simply an edgeless, point only weapon, wouldnt it be more practical to use a short spear in armored combat?

Just wondering

[CalebChow]

Interested in the prevailence and use of the estoc as well. Since it is simply an edgeless, point only weapon, wouldnt it be more practical to use a short spear in armored combat?

Just wondering

Hmm, good question. I would also think that a short spear would work just as well. But I guess the fact that the estoc has a guard and metal body as opposed to a spear's wood may have earned it some favor, be it for durability or for mass in attempting to crush bones or knock someone out. I can't say since I've never handled an estoc to know how much mass is in the "blade".

Something tells me, however, that the estoc also had a certain "bling" factor because it resembled a sword....

[CalebChow]

Oo, another question about the estoc suddenly popped up.

Is the "blade" of an estoc weighty enough and stiff enough to cause significant blunt trauma, or is it perhaps weighted more at the base and therefore doesn't have much mass at the end?

[Stacy Clifford]

The one I saw in Spain looked like a four-foot railroad spike, and although I'm sure it probably had some nice balance to it, I imagine it still hit like a piece of square rebar.

[Greg Coffman]

This was a display case in Invalides, Paris:



Several of these blades have thin diamond cross sections like the Albion Munich. Only one would I consider to actually be an estoc. It had a triangular cross section at the hilt. The middle riser stayed high but the edges looked sharp. Here is a closer shot of it:



Some of the advantages of an estoc over a spear would be that it is shorter, maybe lighter, and overall more compact, you can carry it on your hip, and it is balanced like a sword. A spear is balanced like a long stick with a weight on one end. Some spears would have small, fine points like an estoc while some spears would have wider points.

I actually found this estoc in France to have a surprisingly similar blade as these Meyer-esque early rapiers:

[Stacy Clifford]

I should probably add that while the estoc I saw and the one in Greg's picture could probably do nasty blunt damage to someone unarmored, I doubt it would be as effective as a good wide cutting blade for bludgeoning plate armor. Even if the masses and balances were identical, the structural properties of the estoc are designed to reinforce the point rather than the edge, so swinging it about would probably be something of a last resort or a warding action only. Beating someone silly with a giant icepick is literally missing the point.

[william_cain_iii]

On the other hand, in a pinch against an opponent, you could rather easily use liechtenauer blossfechten techniques with one. The first zornhau play in Ringeck and Von Danzig for example is all about ways to get the point against someone, and I could see that working acceptably well with a Tuck.

[CalebChow]

I want one, and making my own sounds like the best way of getting one.

"We were able to see several new swords coming from MRL, including a splendid Medieval estoc --the original historical piece which I have had chance to play with in the past. The replica was especially light, and would even make a perfect extra long rapier ala’ Camillo Agrippa’s 1553 text."
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/LV02/lasvegas02.htm

Reading this, I'm almost tempted to buy a rapier blade and attach an estoc hilt onto it, but I have a feeling I'm better off using a piece of rebar to make an estoc instead.

[Greg Coffman]

The problem with buying a rapier blade to use an estoc is: where are you going to find a stiff rapier blade? That's the same problem we have in ARMA in finding good rapier simulators. Both the estoc and the rapier require very stiff blades, for slightly different reasons. But stiffness is always a big plus when thrusting. If you find a supplier of stiff blades, let us know.