The dreaded dualwielding

[Sripol Asanasavest]

I always like reading about early primieval cultures like the Vikings and the American Indians.... They live so much closer to dangers and in constant danger getting killed and having their cultures wiped out, that they have to learn how to fight well and to be resourceful to find food. Life for the Vikings was tough! It's not easy to make a living from fishing. If you didn't pull out fish from the ocean, then you starved.... I can understand why they were such fearsome and fierce fighters. You had to make everything count...to have a no-nonsense attitude.... I bet the Vikings can fight better than any knights during the Medieval and Renaissance Europe.

[Nicholas Moore]

I always like reading about early primieval cultures like the Vikings and the American Indians.... They live so much closer to dangers and in constant danger getting killed and having their cultures wiped out, that they have to learn how to fight well and to be resourceful to find food. Life for the Vikings was tough! It's not easy to make a living from fishing. If you didn't pull out fish from the ocean, then you starved.... I can understand why they were such fearsome and fierce fighters. You had to make everything count...to have a no-nonsense attitude.... I bet the Vikings can fight better than any knights during the Medieval and Renaissance Europe.

That makes no sense, I have no idea what your trying to say? One has nothing to do with the other... and you seem to have no idea how people fed themselves anywhere else in the world historically.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Have you ever eaten rotten Greenland shark from Iceland? Or how about Bakalau (SP) from Sweden?

[Joshua Cook]

Something I would like to point out and then I shall drop the matter. The reason I and many others on this forum require evidence to support claims is one of sheer pragmatism. Without a source that others can research as well, one can claim any statement as historical "fact". A good example of this is one that we, as western swordsmen, have fought against for decades now. The "fact" that European swords were nothing more than steel clubs that weighed exorbitant amounts, or the "fact" that plate armor was so heavy that knights had to be lifted on to their horses by cranes.

If you are making a claim as fact, you need to be able to support it with evidence. If a statement is a theory, an opinion, or a simple guess, then express it as such.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Wasn't that how they were portrayed by western movies...how heavy the swords and plated armors were?

But if I had to choose, I'd rather used the lightest weapon(s) I can possibly used, so I wouldn't have to strain myself during a long battle or get caught off guard when I'm tired. Primitive cultures are people, too.... They're not as stupid as people think. The shelled artillery (an advanced technology) was the key and crucial factor in defeating the plain Indians. They gave one hell of a fight. It took about 30 years for the U.S. Army to defeat the Apache tribes, with the help from other Apaches who were tired of fighting and running because they got women and children. .... The Mayan Civilization was at its peak and drawing to an end, which made it easy for the Spaniards to defeat them. People who lived in constant dangers and in fear of dying usually fought better.

[Joshua Cook]

Wasn't that how they were portrayed by western movies...how heavy the swords and plated armors were?

Indeed, you are correct, Sripol. This is how older western cinema portrayed knights. However, this is a myth, forged by the later fencing masters who were trying to claim the superiority of modern Olympic-style fencing. A longsword, the preferred weapon from the medieval fechtbucher, only weighed 3 lbs (1.5 kg) and was intended to be used in two hands. It is an exceedingly light and agile weapon, though not as light as some swords to be sure. And plate armor only weighed between 80 - 100 lbs, approximately the same weight borne by modern soldiers in the field.

Also, on a personal note, I apologize for my rudeness and if I offended you or anyone. I have been experiencing many problems in my personal life and they have made me short-tempered of late.

[nathan featherstone]

no offence taken i understand your woes all to often we have wild claims and accusations made about our fine martial arts. even the other week i had a huge fight with my friends who claimed olympic fencing was somehow superior to martial fencing but without evidence as you say the theorys fall flat.
also that crane theory came from that early film was it henry v or something i forget the film but remeber the exact scene why build a crane when a step would do silly stuff.
i did have a thought last night though although we constantly must prove ourselves this is an advantage if you look at the amount of eastern arts that were shown to be shams once they were entered into the world of mma we just constantly strive to be better not anything magic or mystical.
anyways guys were are WILDLY off topic please can we get back to the topic.

does anyone have that image of the guys with the medieval version of a punching dagger i forget the names but if anyone knows the ones i mean i would love the picture and would be good to add to the topic.

[Randall Pleasant]

Have you ever eaten rotten Greenland shark from Iceland? Or how about Bakalau (SP) from Sweden?

Sripol

THIS IS A FINAL WARNING

You have been repeatedly warned about these types of posts. Stop going off topic with this junk. I do not wish to ban anyone from this forum but I will not allow you to keep engaging in this behavior. STOP!

[Gene Tausk]

Peter - although Gladiators were highly trained and in very good condition, they were not soldiers. As you said, they were to put on a show, albeit a possibly fatal one.

The Romans wanted a good game and in many cases, the Gladiators' equipment and weapons were not based on any military character. As an example - the "retiarius" who fought with a trident and net - certainly no soldier would do this. The two-sword fighter was (probably) the same thing - based on an idea, not from a real source.

Also, some gladiators used cestii alone which, with arm protection, made them very dangerous. Once again, this is not based on a military precedent. They just wanted to see a good fight.

[Peter Goranov]

Yes I've thought about It, they seem to closer resemble modern "professional wrestling" aka. men in tights shouting at each other, than the warriors of their respective society.

I had assumed that, if one catches a Gulish or Thracian warrior and makes him fight in an arena, said warrior would fight in the way he was most comfortable (and deadly). However I think now they were preconditioned and re-trained to put on a good show, rather than remain as efficient killing machines.

On axes, I find this guy's comments on them interesting, if a bit off-topic on actual axe weight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqtp08ZSAYE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boioSxBIkfk

[Joshua Cook]

This is my understanding of the gladiators as well. It's unlikely that they would be allowed to just be efficient killers as their point was to put on a show for the crowd.

Also, I can't remember where I read this, but I do remember reading a history book which said that often gladiators did not actually kill each other just due to financial reasons. The book claimed that gladiators were a substantial investment, from the purchasing of a healthy and fit male slave, to his shelter, food, clothing, training, and medical attention. Because of this, many gladiators had personas that they lived up to in the arena. When the gladiator was defeated, they would change personas, train in different weapons, and go again. It claimed that the only time gladiators were really killed was during specific games to honor the gods, in which case the killed gladiator was supposed to be a human sacrifice.

[william_cain_iii]

Whereas another channel show I saw said that it was a little more common than that, but still not the norm.

It basically followed the same logic, that it was an expensive investment to build up a good gladiatorial setup and train good fighters. On the other hand, if you didn't allow some fights to the death now and then, the crowd might consider you mean (in the original sense of being greedy or stingy), so sometimes you just had to eat the cost and let a good fighter go.

Further, it brought up the notion that most gladiators probably weren't slaves. Slaves are rather usually poorly motivated for a number of reasons. Many gladiators on the other hand were professionals, who entered into the arrangement as a sort of pro-fighting contract. The chances of actual death were relatively low, medical care was comparatively good, and when you retire it's as a famous (local or national) persona. It was basically a horrifying sort of combination of MMA and professional wrestling.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I came upon this article today http://www.roman-colosseum.info/gladiat ... haerus.htm .

One thing we should remember about the dimakhairoi/dimachaeri is just how little we know about them--nowhere near as much as with more famous gladiator types like secutores or retiarii--so much of the information you see in any modern text about them has to rely on a great deal of educated guesswork. For example, we don't even know for sure what kind of sword they were equipped with; if they had carried the sica rather than the gladius, then they would have been two-knife or two-dagger rather than two-sword fighters as such. And of course, as everybody else has mentioned, we have no evidence for dimachaeri fighting outside gladiatorial areas.