Looking for advice about self defence traning.

[william_cain_iii]

I recommend judo or brazilian jiujitsu, or classic wrestling, or le gouren, or basically any grappling art as the primary tool for someone seeking realistic self defense.

Mainly because - if you know how to grapple, you know how to get out of grapples. Police are much more understanding of "I tripped him and shoved him away then tried to run" than "I punched him in the throat and bashed his head into the table." Striking arts are, for better or worse, seen as higher on the scale of force continuum. Judo on the other hand allows you to shed the grab he's likely to try and put on you (many attacks aren't stand up matches so much as a guy grabbing you and trying to choke or punch you at close quarters), or to twist out of a knife attack, and let you bolt.

Just my two cents as a judoka. Study grappling of some sort so you know how to shed a grab. Plus, grappling study (be it wrestling, judo, etc) tends to be on the less expensive end (I'm paying 50 bucks a month for judo classes, compared to 100 for muai thai down the road). That, and the physical conditioning it gives you will leave you in great shape for the eventual attempt to run away you will wisely employ.

[Nicholas Moore]

I recommend judo or brazilian jiujitsu, or classic wrestling, or le gouren, or basically any grappling art as the primary tool for someone seeking realistic self defense.

Mainly because - if you know how to grapple, you know how to get out of grapples. Police are much more understanding of "I tripped him and shoved him away then tried to run" than "I punched him in the throat and bashed his head into the table." Striking arts are, for better or worse, seen as higher on the scale of force continuum. Judo on the other hand allows you to shed the grab he's likely to try and put on you (many attacks aren't stand up matches so much as a guy grabbing you and trying to choke or punch you at close quarters), or to twist out of a knife attack, and let you bolt.

Just my two cents as a judoka. Study grappling of some sort so you know how to shed a grab. Plus, grappling study (be it wrestling, judo, etc) tends to be on the less expensive end (I'm paying 50 bucks a month for judo classes, compared to 100 for muai thai down the road). That, and the physical conditioning it gives you will leave you in great shape for the eventual attempt to run away you will wisely employ.

I agree, there is a book out called "The Little Black Book of Violence: What Every Young Man Needs to Know About Fighting" that covers a great deal on the subject.

[Ryszard Narkiewicz]

Well, Karl. If you're still looking for something good then allow me to suggest you the russian "Systema". It's more based on scientific approach and you won't need to lear any foreing language phrases, that you don't understand like in Aikido. It's looks bit similar, but it's way more easier and more effective. The main goal in systemas are to use the less energy and achieve maximum eficiency, plust you don't need to be physicly strong nor warmed up. The specnaz soldiers use it. The're to types of systemas: Ryabko and Kadochnikov's. The first is more focused on breathing, plust it's more healing one, plus it teaches you to take punches, make controled punches (which take or give energy). The second is more based on bio-physics, mechanical-physics. And in any there are only basic movement's, but the rest is on is let for your improvisation, which means the you make your own moves every time you fight, plus it teches you to use any object as a tool of self defence.
And after good skill develpment, you can reach non-contact combat. But this one is very dangerous to persons health if not trained properly, and it's strongly recommendet to be avoidet, cause you play with your bio-energy.

[Sal Bertucci]

I don't usually do this, but...

It is so dangerous to use as is shown in this Youtube video!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8UKDzVmzt8

[Ryszard Narkiewicz]

I don't know, about that guy. Doen' look like the one I've mentioned before, must be a guy using hypnosis, which is noe effective on anyone.
I was talking about those guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcM9WZcDsm4 (Ryabko's Systema)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTubrM0KKvs (Kadochnikov's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPrN6CXr0NE - this one is with no-contact combat, why with? Because, like they said - it's dangerous for persons health so they try to stick more with contact combat.

[Jonathan Waller]

In case its not been mentioned read 'Meditations on violence' by Rory Miller. It is the best book I've come across dealing with what you really need to consider for self defence and how to transistion from martial art to self defence.
Best

[william_cain_iii]

...wow. More of this Systema is magic stuff? on the ARMA forum? -really-?

[Sal Bertucci]

Seriously!

I'm willing to buy simple-effective techniques based on bio mechanics, but the whole "No touch combat" is something I blow the whistle on. It doesn't even match with the other things about "The Systema". You (Ryszard) said it wasbased on BIO-physics, not META-physics!

I'm sure those "Force" techniques work great on your own students, and on people who aren't really trying to hurt you, but that's just a bunch of junk in my opinion, and has no place on this forum. I'd ask you not to bring up your interesting (but rather silly) "No touch combat" again.

If you really want to have a discourse about it I would suggest going to PMs so as not to fill up the board with mumbo jumbo.

[william_cain_iii]

Getting back into the realm of martial arts.

See, ok. I can understand if some people want to strictly focus on the manuals and use as few other sources as possible/necessary to reconstruct things.

However, there is also merit in doing what I do, taking an art that is already complete in its teaching methods (Judo specifically) on grappling, and then applying it to Ringen/Abrazare. Since Judo has teachers who -know- it, and know they're doing it right, and can demonstrate so, then it can help me bridge the gaps between the techniques in ringen. I don't just learn the throws and arms, I know what goes between.

Each way is fine, it's about what helps you learn.

But going into things like systema or ki attacks or what have you isn't helpful at all, because it has no analog in what we're doing. the medieval fencers wouldn't buy the kiai or systema magic stuff for a second. They'd gut you with a sword, probably after throwing you on the ground with ringen.

[Sal Bertucci]

Actually, they'd go get the priest and have you burned after being waterboarded till you'll say anything they like.

William, I can see where that approach may be helpful if you don't have any wrestling-ish background at all, but only to a certain point.

I feel that you want to keep things so that you're looking a Judo through the lens of Ringen, not Ringen through the lens of Judo. Am I being clear? (I'm not implying that you're doing the latter btw, just making a statement.)

[Stacy Clifford]

Since Judo has teachers who -know- it, and know they're doing it right, and can demonstrate so, then it can help me bridge the gaps between the techniques in ringen. I don't just learn the throws and arms, I know what goes between.

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing this avenue, the best you can say about this approach to ringen is "probably" in terms of attaining historical accuracy. Granted, you can say that about all approaches to resurrecting a dead art, but if you deliberately inject elements of a foreign art then while you may have a good chance of ending up with an effective interpretation, you inevitably decrease your certainty of having an accurate interpretation (it may very well be accurate, but you can't know that for sure). Since ARMA's stated goal is accuracy, we have to take the strict focus approach and try to avoid the risk of contamination. If others take the approaches that we don't and then we all come back and compare results, the insights we gain get us all a little closer to the truth.

[william_cain_iii]

And that's a valid way of considering it. I disagree with it, for a fairly simple reason.

Different martial arts are simply differing delivery systems for the same basic mechanics. A punch is a punch whether you call it by an English or a Japanese name.

A hip drop is a hip drop, a leg reap is a leg reap. I showed a ringen technique to my Judo class, unmodified (durchlaffen/the running through I believe), and my judo instructor instantly named a judo technique based on it.

So the specific techniques learned are immaterial in the way I view martial arts - they're keys to the underlying 'fight.' Principles of breaking balance are the same across the board in those grappling arts that still work. There are pulls, attempts to lift the opponent's center of gravity, drops, leg attacks, etc.

So, if the attacks look the same, and are performed in 99% similar circumstances, then chances are that learning something related and then applying it to the one I have a less complete record of will get me very close to an accurate picture. As long as the underlying principles of 'alive' training and reality are observed, along with independent verification of what you're doing, then I feel accuracy and fidelity are possible with cross-training.

That being the case, let me reiterate - I understand the academic reasons ARMA has elected not to pursue this path. In their own way, they are valid - you want to gain your insights from material that you know was produced as close to your object of study as possible. This is similar to academic literary critique that restricts itself to a certain set of sources.

I firmly agree that by collating the ARMA method against more cross-training methods, once a body of work is published by both sides of the debate, will yield the most complete picture for all of us. No one can study everything - if everyone studies something, then we find the truth.

Regards, Stacy

William Cain

[william_cain_iii]

Missed your post Sal!

You definitely have a point. I was honest with my Judo coach when I joined the school (and to his credit, he says "call me coach, sensei is a specific term for a specific time and place. this is a school."), I told him my focus is to learn a basic corpus of knowledge that I can then apply when I am trying to learn Ringen/Abrazare.

He said this was a great idea, he always brings people in to crosstrain from different arts (he's a wrestling coach as well as a judo coach), and he was impressed with the scholarly side of RMA.

So my first and foremost goal is to better myself as a person, by physical strain and by associating with good people.

My second goal is to advance as a martial artist, specifically in the RMA. The study of Judo is intended to fuel the study of medieval/renaissance grappling by giving me live, constant practice doing things very similar to it, so that I'm not like 'but how do I deal with stiff arms?' when trying to learn Ringen. It is a bridge to the goal.

My third goal is one I discovered when doing Judo - I love judo in and of itself, and I want to get better at it within its own world.

All three of these are closely related, distinct yet equal in my mind. I hope that clarifies my approach a bit. Ringen is ringen, Judo is judo.

[william_cain_iii]

Damn, I'm spamming, but let me add one more thing.

I don't want to come onto the ARMA board and make an jerk of myself. I have come in good faith, to learn what I can, and to share my perspective.

However, with this thread, I have done just that. My perspective is out there. If the mods here would prefer I not bring up cross training again, unless invited, I would be more than happy to let this thread stand as my word on the subject. This is your forum, and I firmly intend to abide by your rules here.

I almost joined ARMA, after all. I have quite a bit of respect for the organization. My decision to go elsewhere has nothing to do with disrespect for the organization, merely personal preferences.

All my regards,

William

[Sal Bertucci]

No worries! I wasn't picking up any of that.

I was going to comment, but don't want to derail the thread any more so I'll start another one.