Question on Quarterstaff

[RayMcCullough]

I was wondering where the holding the staff in the middle comes from? That being with equal distance between both hands ands equal distance from the hands and the ends.

Help please someone.

Ray

[Sal Bertucci]

I don't know if holding it EXACTLY in the middle is a real teaching, but there are multiple manuals that display that technique.

[Allen Johnson]

Mair shows some centergrip stuff. Zachary Wilde liked it as well. Silver hated it. But it is certainly much less than the end grip.

[John Farthing]

Paulus Hector Mair uses this as a transitional grip while moving between guards/wards.

[Roger Norling]

Paulus Hector Mair uses this as a transitional grip while moving between guards/wards.

Depends a bit on whom you look at. Meyer for instance, uses it to close distance for close combat and wrestling, like half-swording. Basically he works by holding the stick at the last third though. This gives you better reach, more power in striking and enables thrusting better.

Striking and parrying with both ends on the other hand, gives you a little more flexibility, although that can be disputed.

[Stacy Clifford]

I would agree with John and Roger here that in most cases the middle grip is either a transitional grip or is used to fight in a manner similar to half-swording when somebody gets inside the point. I've seen one or two manuals like Alternn Fechter that show a middle grip with a long staff (8-10 ft. or more), which might still give you an effective range advantage at both ends, but if you're going to fight like that you'd better be in an open space with nothing around you to bang into.

[RayMcCullough]

Thanks guys.

[s_taillebois]

As noted in general the middle grip is a transitional grip.

A exception would have more to do with period social traditions than a direct martial arts aspect.

In England it was considered provocative to enter a town with the staff held above shoulder height, so a low carry or a mid carry(trail or as a walking staff), or a shoulder carry with the tip down would have been more appropriate.

In a few instances the town watch went out and beat up some staff bearers who persisted in voiding these little courtesies.

Much the same idea as tying down the hilt of a sword when entering certain areas, or submitting your dagger to measurement against the wood dagger at the town gate. (Much of these did not apply to the upper aristocracy, because of their privilage)

[Stacy Clifford]

In England it was considered provocative to enter a town with the staff held above shoulder height, so a low carry or a mid carry(trail or as a walking staff), or a shoulder carry with the tip down would have been more appropriate.

I'd be interested in seeing the source for this info if you happen to remember.

[s_taillebois]

I think it was in David Lindholms book about staff fighting...or Terry Brown's book about English martial arts...

However since martial arts history is outside my usual research obligations in academe, it can take a while to remember where things come from....

[s_taillebois]

Also found this while looking up the older matter.

In Norman occupation law the type of staff one carried could get one into trouble with the new Norman regime. If in the forest (which actually included all the old Saxon common land) if you got caught with a freshly cut xtaff you were in trouble. The freshly cut wood was a violation of Norman law having to do with access to wood, which eventually developed into the leige fee for any wood.

Richard Rutherford Moore mentions it in his essay (he apparently does some work as a interpretive historian at Nottingham).

http://www.sthubertsrangers.org/dangerous_game_i.htm

As so other sources...

Ties in indirectly with some cultural myths. Robin Hood and all the staff references. The original source for Hood was Heyward the Saxon who fought for some years resisting the Norman occupation. Under Norman law the old Saxon common land and the carrying of weapons by free common Saxons was greatly curtailed. So its very likely that new recruits to Heyward's rebellion were often armed with staffs, or when Heyward's men had to move into towns it was the only weapon they could possess openly. Didn't do Heyward all that much good in the end, he was run down and finally killed by Ivo Taillebois.

[Stacy Clifford]

Thanks very much, that looks like a fascinating link. I've got Lindholm's staff book, guess I'll have to dig it out again.

[Sal Bertucci]

So, any relation to Ivo Steven?

[s_taillebois]

So, any relation to Ivo Steven?

Yeah, ancestor. Married into a Saxon family (Earl Leofric's) after the conquest, not sure if it was entirely consensual as it was a weird time. But some high status Saxons did marry Normans as a matter of policy to try to indirectly keep some of their lands.

Staffs, the English valued them quite highly, even to the point that some of the aristocracy trained with them. And centuries later Silver et al certainly praised staff fighting.

There may have been a pyschological element to the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of the staff however....basically a yeomans or a peasants weapon. The lower orders could be very violent (not the haplessly beaten down people as often portrayed) and so might have used staffs with some effectiveness and savagery. And at least in England a far number of the yeomanry had been part of the wars in France. But it would seem very difficult to consistently match a staff agaisnt the impact and speed of a lance, or the plate armored knights protection, sword, pollaxe etc when on foot.

However the upper classes unequivocally had status weapons, better training, and certainly better nutrition.

Probably the best example of this disparity would be the English peasants revolt. Initially they caught the elites off guard, and using bows, bills, daggers and staffs (and some swords/Falchions but likely no lances*) made a mess of things.
But in the reprisals after the murder of Tyler (during negotiations) the yeomanry were generally slaughtered.

*There were some lower echelon aristocrats in the peasants revolt, Sir John Raven for example, and some members of the elite trade class.