The pictures from the manuals are all public domain, right?

James Brazas · Post by **James Brazas** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:10 pm

All,

Our group is trying to create a website right now. I'm pretty sure that it's OK to use images from the manuals for the website, right? They're all public domain, aren't they?

- James Brazas

Kody Tench · Post by **Kody Tench** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:20 pm

James Brazas wrote:All,

Our group is trying to create a website right now. I'm pretty sure that it's OK to use images from the manuals for the website, right? They're all public domain, aren't they?

- James Brazas

Wrong, a good rule to go by is if its on wiktenauer its safe to use, they had some rights issues a while back

Roger Norling · Post by **Roger Norling** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:06 pm

Actually neither of you are correct here. Copyright laws differ between countries. USA and the UK are quite strict and copies in physical or digital form, like photos or scans are considered to have copyrights owned by the creator, or possibly the employer of the creater. This is why there are no complete copies of Ms. I.33, for instance.

However, there are court cases in the USA that indicates that this is wrong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_ ... Corel_Corp

Sweden and Germany are more relaxed legally and judges that there is too little "creative height" in making such copies and therefore such copies are legally free to share and distribute. However, many libraries and museums are not aware of this and tend to be restrictive about allowing redistribution. And as we are dependant on good relations to them if we wish to have their assistance in bringing more material out of the archives, we need to take this into consideration.

Both the Wiktenauer and HROARR have been in contact with the libraries and have asked for specific permission to redistribute manuals and images. In most cases this has been given. For HROARR there is one exception where I have decided to share material against the museum employee's wishes, since he has no legal foundation to stand on and has chosen not to reply to my letter where I ask regarding this specific topic. The public interest takes precedence over unfounded claims to copyright here I think.

So, basically you need to ask the original distributor. You can't rely on other sites, since they may have been given specific permission. And keep in mind that you should follow the law of the country of the copyrights owner, not your own.

Randall Pleasant · Post by **Randall Pleasant** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:26 pm

Roger

Very good points and very good advice.

James

One other thing to consider. You only have permission to use an image only when you have clearly stated permission from someone who has the authorization to grant the permission. In other words, a receptionist, clerk, salesman, etc., at a museum or a business does not have the authorization to grant permission to use anything. Permission can only come from those who have the authorization to grant the permission.

James Brazas · Post by **James Brazas** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:50 pm

This is interesting. I can't say I've done much work with Intellectual Property law, so I find it interesting that anyone could still have legal claim to any of these images. After all, the general rule in the US is copyrights cease to exist 75 years after the creator's death.

All of the images I was thinking of using are on Wiktenauer.

How would I go about asking if I can use them?

Roger Norling · Post by **Roger Norling** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:17 am

James Brazas wrote:This is interesting. I can't say I've done much work with Intellectual Property law, so I find it interesting that anyone could still have legal claim to any of these images. After all, the general rule in the US is copyrights cease to exist 75 years after the creator's death.

All of the images I was thinking of using are on Wiktenauer.

How would I go about asking if I can use them?

Well, the copyrights to the originals have seized of course. However, in some countries certain types of copies are considered to also be "original work" since it takes skill and special equipment to manufacture them. Consequently, the Royal Armoury in the UK has copyrights to all digital photos of the Ms I.33.

Asking Wiktenauer, ie Michael Chidester or Ben Michels, could give you a clue if the images are free to share, but you really should ask the libraries and copyrights owners directly. Info on where the images are from is on the Wiktenauer site. Normally, the copyrights owners require that you have a text that tells the user where the image is from and that you keep copyrights text intact in any document.

James Brazas · Post by **James Brazas** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:03 am

That's rather squirrelly law in my opinion. Taking a picture of a picture is "original work"?

I suppose that might make some sense if there was significant restorative work or translation work, though the latter wouldn't apply to the pictures themselves.

I thought something like that might be involved here, given the value of these manuscripts - and I've no desire to have difficulties regarding Intellectual Property law.

Are Michael Chidester or Ben Michels on the ARMA forums so that I could message them and ask about permission to use photos from the manuals?

Doug Marnick · Post by **Doug Marnick** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:04 pm

They aren't with the ARMA but this link may be helpful:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Wiktenauer:Copyright_Policy

Good luck!

Randall Pleasant · Post by **Randall Pleasant** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:59 pm

James Brazas wrote:Are Michael Chidester or Ben Michels on the ARMA forums so that I could message them and ask about permission to use photos from the manuals?

No.

James Brazas · Post by **James Brazas** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:14 pm

Alright. Thank you.

The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts

The pictures from the manuals are all public domain, right?

The pictures from the manuals are all public domain, right?

Re: The pictures from the manuals are all public domain, rig