Daggers

[Alexis Sicard]

In the FIORE dagger techniques the dagger is pointing the ground, why don't hold the dagger like a sword ? Slashing with a dagger is ineffective ?
You get more range with slashing isn't it ?

[Stacy Clifford]

There are plenty of manuals that show both an ice pick grip and a sword grip with a dagger, but the techniques in almost all the manuals are mostly about stabbing, not slashing. Most people wore heavier clothing back then because the climate was colder, and cloth is very good at reducing slashing damage, so stabbing was a much more certain way of doing damage. Stabbing also is the only way to fight an armored opponent, and most of the manuals show a rondel dagger that was good for armored fighting. Stabbing overhand was more powerful and generally preferred, but they knew how to stab underhand as well.

[Alexis Sicard]

Nice, so except for a very light clothes ice pick position is better, thanks.

[Stacy Clifford]

If you're designing a game, a few underhand stabs (to the belly and low targets) are still good to have in there; overhand stabbing seemed to have been preferred, but it wasn't exclusive.

[s_taillebois]

As M. Clifford noted many of the techniques associated with rondels did emphasize the stab/thrust. And part of the conceptual issue here is what is considered a dagger in our modern perception is often a double edged blade very suited to cutting. It was not uncommon for roundels to be entirely a thrusting blade some of which had no cutting edges at all. The 15th century English roundel on p. 125 of Dr. Tobias Capwell's book "Knifes, Daggers, and Bayonets" is a very good type example. And from experimentation with roundel hilts having more of a cutting blade form, with what roundel hilts do by their nature to the hand, the 'ice pick' grip does permit much deeper penetration of a pell whether it is a 'spike' or wider blade with a cutting edge.

Another factor is that the period users of roundels & even later period daggers did have a tendency (as borne out by court records of murders) to target the skull/head...for which a thrust is more viable. Christopher Marlowe died of such a wound, when his assault with a dagger went wrong for him and Frizer killed him with Marlowe's own weapon (1593). And roundels were out of fashion for most by then...

Underhand and overhand methods, were as noted, used for the roundel but the nature of the grip on these weapons did make the method of doing a 'underhand' attack different (Talhoffer et al) . Also the point down makes the dagger (roundel) more effective at warding and trapping.

Best way to understand this is to make or buy a roundel* and use it. The manuals are a wonderful asset, but using the actual weapon does tend to make the subtleties not clear in the period illustrations more observable.

*probably best not to buy the MRL roundel with the brass hilt...on some of these the blade is a bit weak at the tip and the hilt construction works loose quickly. The hilt itself is too thin and etc. Alas MRL at times can be more inconstant than a fickle wind...sometimes quite good sometimes so poor as to be unusable.

Other types of daggers from other periods different but outside my general experience so better to leave others to comment.