A Question on Medieval Two-Weapon Fighting

[JeanryChandler]

Nice illustration! That is exactly what I was trying to describe, thanks.

J

[Casper Bradak]

Can you describe these three methods?

Stifling, stopping, absorbing or redirecting the blow before or it gains power or within the stroke where it has no power.
Parry with the sword and dagger, use the sword and dagger to parry simultaneously.
The "shield", parrying with both hands on the dagger. Potentially painful if you don't stifle.

So are you describing the kron to catch the strike? Versetzen? Sounds risky and painful, unless you're stifling, in which case that's really the only way to close with a dagger whilst checking his blade.

[Jared L. Cass]

Jeanry, any luck finding the picture of the guy with the mace and sword? That would be cool to see.

Anyway, another form of two weapon fighting that we see quite-a-bit of in the manuals (always in the juducial fight though and not really two weapons used together but "seperatly" in each hand) is the sword and spear combo. The spear held as per usual but with the longsword held together with it (take the spear away and the guy would be half-swording). Usually this combo appears to be used to set aside a blow or two then the spear is thrown and the sword is already out and ready to be used.

I was just messing around a bit with that here, it's actually quite comfortable. I forget which master said it...maybe Silver, but the half sword fight and spear fight (short staff), are the same (or something like that). which makes this combo real natural (except for trying to work that spear throw into it...more practice... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Still not two weapons used together but individually, but two weapons being used together (if that makes any sense <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Matt Shields]

Posted by Kyle Stickling

Do you think the differences between the cut and thrust sword and a more medieval version are so different that I can't use that as a base of study?

I'd also like an awnser to this question. From what I have seen, most medieval swords lack ricasso's, which seems quite important in cut and thrust swordsmanship.

[Casper Bradak]

"Do you think the differences between the cut and thrust sword and a more medieval version are so different that I can't use that as a base of study?"

To generalise, I'd say the differences are too great. The later cut and thrust manuals definitely utilize a different fighting method, very much oriented toward better point control and lessened cutting ability, and some of them lean more toward civilian circumstances and methods. The wards and defenses are usually different from what I've seen, and often paired with other weapons differing from earlier ones. The depicted context is often different as well.

[JeanryChandler]

Not yet, the site I had been looking at is down, though I did get the new Osprey book on the Hussites which has a lot of good pictures including several reliefs of Ziska with his famous mace, though none with him fighting or using a sword.

Anyway, I'll post evidence here when I find it.

That is very interesting incidentally about the sword and spear, I had never heard of that. I'm fascinated by it. Could you possibly post a link to some depictions of this in fechtbuchs, if there are any?

J

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Jeanry,

Here you go.

This is plate # 5 from Talhoffer's 1459 Ambraser Codex.

The Text is as follows.

5. Hie hat er schwerdt vnd spiessz in den henden vnd stat für schiessen
5. Here he has the sword and the spear in his hands and (he is) positioned for a throw
(schiessen = throw and can also be translated as "thrust").

Hope that helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[John_Clements]

Hi Ryan,
I've got some info on this from historical sources, most all annecdotal, bottom line is prior to 1500 two swords were not a systematic method of fighting.

[James_Knowles]

Am I mistaken in understanding that with Tolhoffer's judicial combat pictures with two weapons, the weapons are not used one in each hand "two weapon style," but are used one at a time? IIRC the sword is held in reserve in the pictures. I don't have my 1467 Tolhoffer at my elbow.

[Casper Bradak]

They are held together so the sword will be at the ready when the spear is thrown. The grip allows a good throw and a decent warding position. See Gladitoria on this site for some other like ideas.

[Jared L. Cass]

Also see a few images of this "longsword and spear" in the Codex Wallerstein. These are nice ones because they appear to show not only a preperation to throw but also just the use of the spear as a spear with the sword in reserve.

Re James: "Am I mistaken in understanding that with Tolhoffer's judicial combat pictures with two weapons, the weapons are not used one in each hand "two weapon style," but are used one at a time?" Yep that's correct and as I stated in my first post on this combo.

Re John: Wow! Great image! Where'd you discover that one? Very cool. With the mace and shield guy opposite and that wierd contraption/machine in the middle it looks like something out of a movie...sort of like a tournament held in an obstical course of death <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Neat.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[James_Knowles]

That is an interesting depiction with two weapons.

that wierd contraption/machine in the middle

That's part of the decorative illumination. It's not meant to be a machine or anything. Just pretty designs that go around and between the text. If you look at a lot of the Mediaeval manuscripts you'll see people, animals, buildings, etc. in among the decorations. Some are pretty cool.



The scribes stick wierd stuff in the books. Some funny (a woman with a spinning spindle on the end of a long stick jousting a knight), some political commentary (the pope's head on a baboon), and some rare complaints (bad light, sore fingers, hairy vellum). That work was so greuling that scribes jokingly invented not a patron saint but a patron devil. I've done enough calligraphy in my life I have a small idea of what they went through.

[JeanryChandler]

That is a REALLY cool picture. Fascinating . Has anyone ever tried this?


J

[Jared L. Cass]

Doh! That makes alot more sense than what my wild imagination conjured up, James <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Heh, heh...still looks like something out of a cheesy kung-fu movie.

Ever notice the (ahem...) rather "adult" oriented couple along the boarder of the Beaux Tapestry.... <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. A number of months ago when David kite was up in the area and him and I and Phil Ristow were sparring, David was using two arming sword and seriously killing us. In a one on one combative encounter it seemed to be a pretty viable combo. I have my doubts though (as has been pointed out befor by others) on it's usefulness/versitility in a battlefield setting. As far as opposing it with a long sword, the few times I was able to makecontact with David (bear in mind I'm not too skilled) was when we started at range and charged eachother. Then the longsword easly attacked the legs on the pass befor David's weapons could even get near enoufgh range.

Anyother generally uncommon "combo weapons" than those depected above in period artwork that people could post a link too?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jared L. Cass]

Somehow we all (I think, this thread is getting pretty long)forgot to mention Fiore's two weapon usage: http://www.varmouries.com/wildrose/fiore/section4.html

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin