New Article Online - Damaged Edges

[JeanryChandler]

Speaking of blunt and damaged edges, I was wondering what y'all use. I just got a very reasonably priced Heimrick longsword which I like in some aspects, balance and durability especially, but not in others, namely the weight which seems a bit much at over 4 lbs.

In correspondence the maker told me that adding significant distal taper tended to make the blade too weak to hold up under much live steel sparring, I wonder if he is designing these for edge to edge parries? Any thoughts would be appreciated.


JR

[JeffGentry]

Jeanry
4lbs, that is not realy uncommon with the more decorative type of sword, most longsword's at approx 37inche's were around 2.5lbs, they were made to be somewhat flexible for the flat parrie's that is the beauty of steel it is somewhat flexible and strong, if not done right though they would be whippy it is a fine line so the maker may have done it to avoid the whip on the flat and to facilitate edge on edge.

you can find alot of replica's out there that are more to the "old" weight, lenght, and react pretty good.

This is just MO for what it is worth.

Jeff

[JeanryChandler]

Thanks Jeff, I'm well aware of the weights of most medieval swords. This particulaar longsword 45" in total length, with a 34" blade. It's not a decorative sword but a hard core sparring weapon, I believe it is the type AEMMA uses. I just bought it because it was cheap, and allegedly very durable. The only other weapons in the same price range ($250 or so) were MRL replicas which too many people have told me theirs broke due to weak tangs.

Most of the really nice sword replicas I can find seem to be in the $500-$2000 range, more expensive than I can afford at the moment

J

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

honestly i expect that many with the "emotional investment" in edge blocking will continue to do so regardless of the evidence against it.

There are direct instructions to parry edge-to-edge (which certainly does not mean Hollywood-style foible-on-foible bashing!) in several historical texts. Not medieval ones, though, and whether they happen in those is an issue still being debated. In the end, it all comes down to the system of fence being discussed; in English backsword, edge-on-edge without doubt did happen; in German longsword, hard 90 degree angle stops preferably didn't.

Speaking of blunt and damaged edges, I was wondering what y'all use. I just got a very reasonably priced Heimrick longsword which I like in some aspects, balance and durability especially, but not in others, namely the weight which seems a bit much at over 4 lbs.

In correspondence the maker told me that adding significant distal taper tended to make the blade too weak to hold up under much live steel sparring, I wonder if he is designing these for edge to edge parries? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I think the Heimrick blunts were developed with assistance from AEMMA. Considering AEMMA's focus on armoured combat, slightly thicker-than-usual blades seem kinda logical, as they will have to go through quite a bit of grappling at the half-sword. The part about distal taper left me wondering a bit, though...

Rabbe

[GaryGrzybek]

The problem I found with the Heimrick blunts I've handled is that they were a bit heavy and dead feeling not to mention quite ugly. That was some years ago so maybe there's been some improvement.

I purchased an Armour Class bastard sword from Nathan Robinson not long ago. I find it to be very solid but lively and very well balanced. The thick edges combined with a narrow profile make it safe without compromising good handling. I like this one over all the other blunts I've handled to date.

I'm really looking foward to seeing the Albion Squire line too.

Sorry if I've steered off topic here but I feel good training tools are hard to come by too <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

I'd be willing to bet that a bit of edge contact was to be expected in medieval swordsmanship as well,albeit by mistake or chance,especially at the ricasso when performing jamming moves such as the Kron.

I am not qualified to comment on backsword.

As for armoured fighting requiring uncommonly thick blades(If that is what you were implying),well,I am a pretty active armoured enthusiast and as long as the blade has a good stiff riser or semi-diamond cross-section accompanied by decent temper, the blade needn't be overly thick in cross-section to do it's work.That is because the leverages incorporated in harness fechten rely on mechanical advantage and advatageous footwork along with balance disruption to achieve full effect in my opinion and experience.You can see more of what I am speaking of here http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html You may note that our blunts are actually a bit lighter than the diamond sectioned blade shown in the penetration test that would have been more commonly used for these types of techniques in period(an unfortunate concession made for safeties sake) yet the techniques remain viciously effective...

[JeanryChandler]

I purchased an Armour Class bastard sword from Nathan Robinson not long ago.

Could you provide a link? I tried to google that and got nothing but D&D stuff... <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> What was the price, ball-park?

JR

[Casper Bradak]

I've read a couple of english backsword texts, and the techniques were mostly identicle to falchion techniques, with no edge on edge. A backswords edge will get just as trashed as any other.
I haven't read the majority though, and for all I know they could be saying to turn swords to saws in all the others. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[GaryGrzybek]

I'll send you a pm on this since I fear we'll stray from the topic.

I only brought this up because I feel that the subject is not only importaint when it comes to accurate cutting blades but good quality blunts as well. Let's face it, if we use our blunt training swords improperly, they will also suffer unessasary damage.

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Casper,

"A backswords edge will get just as trashed as any other."

Not really, since you are going to preferably parry with the third of the blade nearest to the hilt, which was often left unsharpened. Are you familiar with Wylde, for example? Just for the kicks, try doing his inside and outside guards with the flat... *g*


Shane,

I didn't mean that a sword mean for armoured combat *has* to be thicker, my point was just that the Heimricks might have been made the way the are to last a tad longer. I can't really comment further, since I've never worn a full harness, much less fought in one...

Rabbe

[Randall Pleasant]

Rabbe Laine wrote:
There are direct instructions to parry edge-to-edge (which certainly does not mean Hollywood-style foible-on-foible bashing!) in several historical texts. Not medieval ones, though, and whether they happen in those is an issue still being debated. In the end, it all comes down to the system of fence being discussed; in English backsword, edge-on-edge without doubt did happen; in German longsword, hard 90 degree angle stops preferably didn't.

Everything in the recreation of Medieval and Renaissance combat systems should and must always be debatable. However, I think the point Ryan was trying to make is that the primary reason edge-on-edge remains so debatable is because of some people’s emotional investment in their position on the debate. As such, evidence plays little or no role in them staying in their position. In other words, because of their personally histories and status positions in re-enactment, role playing, sports fencing, etc., they’re finding it very hard to say, “I’ve was wrong”.

Jeanry Chandler wrote:
…most of the 'parries' now days seem to be my edge striking the other guys flat or my flat hitting his edge, while setting aside or even binding.

Yes, when you perform techniques correctly edge-on-flat just naturally happens. Edge-on-edge is not so much something we avoid doing as it is something that just does not happen when we perform techniques just as the masters described them, with proper speed & intend, and in a martially sound manner. Personally, I feel that most edge-on-edge parrying often require an un-natual movement.

By the way Jeanry, once you start doing proper edge-on-flat you can never go back...<br>you've seen the light. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry Chandler wrote:
Would it be safe then to say then that while edge parries were avoided as much as possible, there was a certain amount of inevitability of them happening in combat eventually…

Yes, but remember while modern soldiers will often drag their weapons through mud in order to stay alive, even the most rag-tag armies in the world do not teach their soldiers to lay their weapons in the mud. Likewise, it seems very clear that the medieval masters did not teach their students to place their swords in the mud or to foolishly destroy their edges.

[Casper Bradak]

Not really, since you are going to preferably parry with the third of the blade nearest to the hilt, which was often left unsharpened.

You didn't mention that. That will save its cutting ability, but even an unsharpened edge will be gouged by a real cut on the edge. Del tin brand swords are a commonly used foil, blunt, but still badly gouged by even other swords just as blunt with forceful blows. Therefore, a backswords edge will get just as trashed as any other. And though "unsharpened", they were probably sharper there than modern blunt repros, without a specific ricasso.
I'm not familiar with Wylde, but I don't dispute he may have advocated recieving blows on the edges forte.

[Rabbe J.O. Laine]

Well, DTs are usually fairly soft. While it is true that the unsharpened forte of an otherwise sharp sword is usually going to be thinner that that of a purpose-built blunt, the harder blade will likely compensate; for example, there is a swedish military sideswordish-broadsword kinda baskethilt in a local musem that displays quite a few nicks on the forte and the foible of the short edge. However, those nicks would be quite invisible from about one and a half meter away if the lightning in the room did not highlight them.

Rabbe

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would point out that Wylde is far from either a Medieval or Renaissance source, as you well know. If you want such sources that do speak to using "flat" (flech, flaeche) for longsword fighting to do parries and so forth, then one can find such in Liechtenauer & Ringeck, and in Meyer. JH

[Casper Bradak]

Ahh, so a harder edge than a del tin has will not be gouged or chipped to an appreciable degree....I see, hehe