The dangers of groundfighting in WMA

[Shawn Cathcart]

i don't think going to the ground is so much a bad thing what is bad is staying there and trying to fight.

I think the fight can be finished on the ground, just not in the way perhaps modern MMA practioners would attempt to do so. Again time is a limiting factor, its unclear just how much time you might have in order to conclusively elminate your opponent on the ground. I think we need to realize the differences that A) having a knife B) fully willing to eyegouge, bite and fishhook C) willing to kill your opponent, add to the dynamic of historical ground fighting, from modern MMA equivalents. Their very small omissions to be sure, but they change the dynamic a lot. I think a ground encounter would employ gouging, biting, hooking, clawing at the face, until such a moment as a dagger could be drawn by either opponent and used. These implements make it possible to finish an opponent quickly on the ground. Its possible to finish an opponent without these techniques and implements, however it takes longer. Occasionally you see a clear cut and fast finishing action in modern MMA ground fighting, but their rare, and if both fighters are experienced it generally takes as I mentioned before at least several minutes. Did they have that kind of time? Well that depends on lots of factors as I mentioned before. Myself I lean towards them not having several minutes to engage in ground fighting, but that's just a personal opinion, I could be wrong.

[JeanryChandler]

I think there are three things you can say about this interesting discussion.

1) It is generally better to avoid going to the ground (except for just jumping on somebody) in anything but an organized one-on-one fight. On the battlefield, you definately do NOT want to go to the ground, unless there is no other alternative.

2) However, it is easy for this to happen, probably especially easy if you are in armor just due to the extra 50 or 60 lbs of weight. Therefore it is good to train for this situation.

3) And on the other hand, from everything I have read, the dagger was the most ubiquitous weapon on the ancient battlefield. Everybody had a dagger or a knife. More often than not, a really formidable killing dagger by todays standards (a 6 inch blade would be small by medieval standards, 20 inch blades were not unheard of)

So I would say this. Groundfighting is definately a likely enough outcome that a well rounded fencer should train for it. A backup Dagger should be assumed to almost always be a factor in such fights, which may change the dynamic from waht you might learn in Wrestling, Judo, BJJ or even Pankretion.

I think you should fence with a dagger in your belt.

Given the fact that groundfighting is something worth knowning, even if it's something you generall want to avoid if possible, you should probably think in terms of what proportion of your training should be devoted to training for going to the ground, and also what conditions (i.e. armament) should be factored in.

I will also add that based on my own experiences growing up and working in the French Quarter, and witnessing a whole, whole lot of bar fights, (even participating in a fair amount) while I agree with Mike that jumping on somebody can be a great way to finish a fight quick (cracking a head on the sidewalk can calm the most crazed antagonist in seconds) getting onto the ground in anything other than that dominant position (from which it is fairly easy to get back on your feet) is very, very dangerous. I can't even begin to count how many times I have seen one guy winning a fight rolling around on the ground only to get stomped into mash potatoes by the losers friends. (I've even been that guy myself on one or two occasions!)

Anyway, my $.02

J

[Casper Bradak]

Got me thinking more on specifics. Why exactly is it that groundfighting, outside of a one on one context with a few rules is a bad idea? Sure it can finish a fight quickly, if skilled, your victims dagger and eye gouges may be rendered useless, but the ONE big thing it takes away from you, even if done quickly, is the ability to maneuver.
Striking, and throws or quick grapples while standing don't take away your feet. You can meneuver about your opponent/opponents. Even if done quickly, going to the ground takes this away while beating their face in/throwing them while standing does not.
Like it's been said, it happens, and if you can't fight on the ground you just might be screwed, but don't do it on purpose outside the ring. Without foot maneuvers, you cannot fight multiple opponents successfully, you cannot retreat, you can't help your buddies, and without a dominant or advantageous position on the ground, even that is extremely hard to work from against even one individual. Good luck retaking the vor on that. The moment groundfighting is initiated in a battle, all teamwork is removed on your part, unless you've deliberately grappled one individual for your buddies to stick, but chances are he has buddies too.
If you "initiate" the ground fighting by being tossed first and alone and your opponent has not, his position is even more advantageous than a top mount, vice versa.

[JeffGentry]

That is my thing get your opponent on the ground and stomp the dog crap out of them, if you go down with them don't stay there when both of you fall the first one up in MO is going to be the winner, i am not a big guy so i like it when my opponenet is on the ground and i can stand and kick him my leg's are stronger than my arm's, like Casper said i like to be able to run away if i have too so i like to be standing.

is just me i am a wimp lol.

Jeff

[Ryan Ricks]

yes, but what is a fish hook?

ryan

[Scott Anderson]

Usually where one of the combatants sticks a curved finger into his opponents mouth catching and potentially tearing the cheek. At least that's what I've always been told.

SPA

[Jay Vail]

Usually where one of the combatants sticks a curved finger into his opponents mouth catching and potentially tearing the cheek.

Also works in the eyes and nose. Nasty thing. Also can use the thumb in the same manner.

To others generally:

There are a lot of good comments here that so most people understand the true dynamics of the medieval fight. It isn't any different now than then, IMHO. Most real fights where the combatants are really serious about hurting each other end up with one guy on top pound the snot out of the other guy. There might be some wrestling at first on the ground, but the "winner" was almost always the guy to got on top and stayed there and then used that dominant position to stomp the other guy. Also, resorting to nasties (gouging, throat grabbing and poking, etc) tends to cut wrestling short. The purpose of these techniques is not to act as a knockout or finishing technique, but to allow you to get to the top mount so you can then . . . you know what. At least in my humble experience.

[J.Amiel_Angeles]

Why exactly is it that groundfighting, outside of a one on one context with a few rules is a bad idea?

I claim no expertise or great experience in WMA, but I thought that Spanish sword-and-buckler fighters would crawl under Swiss pikes (this is in John Clements' article on bucklers)? Doesn't this count as ground-fighting out of a one-on-one scenario?

[JeffGentry]

Yea Ryan it is just hooking a finger in the mouth or eye and is painful, you have to be careful though because you can get a nasty bite doing it, i know you stick your nasty finger in my mouth i'll bite, and serious damage can be inflicted by the human jaw and our mouth's contain quit abit of bacteria so be careful and quick about it.

Jeff

[Ryan Ricks]

yow that's horrible. with that in mind i'd definately like to stay off the ground if at all possible

ryan

[Casper Bradak]

They would crawl or roll under the pikes so as not to get stuck by them, then stand and fight once within the points.

[Rob Lovett]

Jay, if the winner is always the guy on top in wrestling what is the point of a rear choke? This can be done underneath the guy and if you are choking the carotid will take about 10 secs for the other guy to be unconcious. An example of winning, not being on top and not pounding "snot" out of the guy.

Regards
Rob

[Jay Vail]

Rob, with respect, I am only writing from my personal experience and what I have seen actually happen. I have never seen anyone choked out on the street. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but in the encounters I've seen nobody used a carotid choke. The closest anyone's come is the ordinary headlock. Except for one time where there was one guy who caught a kid on the bus with a rear naked choke. The chokee grabbed the choker's head by the hair to secure it, and poked him in the eyes. End of choke. Chokes usually are too easy to escape from if you have a hand free if you know what you're doing.

[Mike Cartier]

I've seen people get choked. i've also seen people continue to fight after being stabbed. never underestimate the power of the human body to endure pain and injury during a fight.
A poke in the eye or a hook in the mouth is not a fight ender.
being choked unconcious is end game, people don't use chokes because they don't know how. If you get a good wrestler on your back and you don't know how to escape its over.

Don't forget too that fish hooking and eye gouging won't help you escape from underneath a large grappler anymore than ground fighting if his friends are standing over you waiting to stomp on you.
In fact from my personal experience having watched at least 25 -35 street fights any sort of multiple attacker scenario ends the fight quickly, if you try to box with someone and his buddies decide to boot salute you or hit you in the back of the head its going to make for big trouble for you.
In my opinion the only thing that helps against multiple attackers is a weapon and only the correct weapon at that.

[Ryan Ricks]

i feel pretty sheltered and lucky.

the most violent encounter i've ever seen was a brief fist fight between two kids in middle school.

even the seedy bars i go to are pretty well behaved.

ryan