Earliest references to oriental MA in the West

[PeteWalsh]

Does anyone have information on the earliest references to Asian/Oriental martial arts in Western literature?
I am interested to know how Eastern MA were first perceived in the West and if they were compared and contrasted to existing European or other styles and techniques.

[Kevin T. Crisalli]

I'm not familiar with when the first contacts were, but I do seem to remember katanas being described as scimitars or sabers in literature from the earliest contact with japanese culture.

Can't recall anything more useful than that.

[Eddie Smith]

I have heard a tale, on some program on History or something, that when the English? first came in contact with the Sholin temple they asked of their guide what the monks were doing and the guide simply said Kung Fu. Now it is my opinion that they were not shocked by the fighting observed, but rather by the 'strange' looking exercises employed by the Sholin monks. For to Western eyes some of their exercizes, such as meditating while hanging on a rope by their necks, and the like would look strange if you didn't know what was going on. But I could be wrong I wasn't there.

[louie Pastore]

Petter's 1674 Dutch wrestling manuscript has a technique which isn't seen in other Western wrestling manuals but would normally be recognised today as distinctly Indonesian, from the art of Silat.

But as the Dutch colonised Indonesia it would be impossible to prove who taught who





Here's a thread from another forum regarding the Petter and Indonesian Silat connection....
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums ... hp?t=73711

Louie

[Gene Tausk]

Petter's 1674 Dutch wrestling manuscript has a technique which isn't seen in other Western wrestling manuals but would normally be recognised today as distinctly Indonesian, from the art of Silat.

But as the Dutch colonised Indonesia it would be impossible to prove who taught who





Here's a thread from another forum regarding the Petter and Indonesian Silat connection....
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums ... hp?t=73711

Louie

Petter's techniques and book has nothing to do with Indonesian fighting arts. Why isn't there a picture of a Kris in the book? Sorry, our European ancestors were not dummies when it came to fighting and this includes the unarmed systems as well.

Using this logic, I can also argue that Alexander the Great introduced pankration, hence fighting arts, to the East (a theory which is out there but to which I do not subscribe).

[Mike Cartier]

ive studied Silat before and that manual does not make me think of silat

[louie Pastore]

ive studied Silat before and that manual does not make me think of silat

First of all I'd like to clarify that it's only this one technique that made me think that there may be a connection linking Dutch and Indonesian arts and that it's just as likely that it originated in Holland....

I too have experience in Silat and have seen this distinctive technique being utilised...

here's what a Silat master had to say....

From the manuals that I have seen so far: Italian, French, Spanish, Dutch and etc. the one thing that strikes me is all but Nicolaes Petter's manual shows "common" throws that you see now a days.

The reason I like the Silat and Indonesian Fighting Arts is they are so combative and brutal and they don't go by the European/Western "Honor" system. Since you have seen more on the European/Western fighting arts than me I will ask you if you have seen any that would fall under "Dirty Fighting" like pulling hair and etc.?

The reason I ask this is because the techniques in Nicolaes Petter's manual reminds me of exactly that Good Ol Dirty Silat, hair pulling and slamming their opponent to the ground!

So as that type of throw may be European and not Silat, I think the WAY of the throw may have been influenced by Silat because of the use of the hair pulling for leverage & control.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester
www.ict-silat.com

Regards,
Louie

[Sal Bertucci]

The man hasn't looked very hard at all. Codex Wallerstein (A published book easily accessible and the ONLY one I've read so far) clearly speaks of "grab him by the hair", "hit him in the teeth", "stab him in the testicles", etc. I would hardly call these "honorable". These are get, kill, then walk away techniques. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

[Gene Tausk]

The man hasn't looked very hard at all. Codex Wallerstein (A published book easily accessible and the ONLY one I've read so far) clearly speaks of "grab him by the hair", "hit him in the teeth", "stab him in the testicles", etc. I would hardly call these "honorable". These are get, kill, then walk away techniques. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

Not to mention the fechtbuch of Joachim Paschen. There are many nasty techniques in the book, including hairpulling.

This "Master" needs to do some research before he makes blanket statements about fighting arts he clearly knows very little about.

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

In regards to the original question, a Jesuit Missionary named Cibot did some ink drawings of Chi Gung/ Chinese Internal MA in the 1600s. I think there was also some discussion of some Portuguese sailors fighting a series of duels vs. some Samurai during appx the same era.

Have to remember that most Asian MA as they exist today were not codified until early modern times. I think alot of the ethos, and even a great deal of the techniques and training would be similar, but the codification and formalization would be different.

[Stacy Clifford]

Have to remember that most Asian MA as they exist today were not codified until early modern times. I think alot of the ethos, and even a great deal of the techniques and training would be similar, but the codification and formalization would be different.

I think that's one of the main reasons that Asian arts wouldn't have influenced European arts very much. Europeans already had a long tradition of codifying their knowledge and putting it on paper, making it more transportable. Teaching a few sailors or soldiers some Asian techniques that probably looked a lot like what they had already seen back home probably wasn't too likely to make its way back to professional fight masters with funding to write books. Besides, our own fechtmeisters often warned against teaching peasants and foreigners, and I suspect Asians felt much the same way.

[Sal Bertucci]

I thought of another reason why there might be so many techniques that are shall we term it "nice". One thing that we know is that while the men performing these techniques often trained without armor. Many of these techniques would be expected to be used on the battlefield, where armor was prevalent. Therefore, it does no good to teach a technique that involves hair pulling, if when the technique is called for you won't be able to access the opponent's hair since he's wearing a helmet.

So it could just be that that the European Masters were much wiser than the Indonesians.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

So it could just be that that the European Masters were much wiser than the Indonesians.

Or the Indonesians didn't wear helmets. Seriously--there are very few (if any) depictions of armor in the traditional art of Indonesian cultures, and no helmets that I'm aware of until the Dutch gave helmets to their colonial Indonesian soldiers in the 1920s or 1930s. So maybe it's simply a reflection of the fact that Indonesian warriors' hair would have been more accessible to their enemies, even in battle.

[Gene Tausk]

I thought of another reason why there might be so many techniques that are shall we term it "nice". One thing that we know is that while the men performing these techniques often trained without armor. Many of these techniques would be expected to be used on the battlefield, where armor was prevalent. Therefore, it does no good to teach a technique that involves hair pulling, if when the technique is called for you won't be able to access the opponent's hair since he's wearing a helmet.

So it could just be that that the European Masters were much wiser than the Indonesians.

Sal - have you been reading these posts? Read J. Paschen's fechtbuch and tell me about the "nice" techniques in them. Our ancestors knew how to get down-and-dirty with the rest of them. The idea that Mid and Renn fighting arts were well-mannered gentlemanly watered down sports is nonsense, pure and simple.

[Sal Bertucci]

I guess my tone didn't go well. Anyway, I was referring to this quote here:

"From the manuals that I have seen so far: Italian, French, Spanish, Dutch and etc. the one thing that strikes me is all but Nicolaes Petter's manual shows "common" throws that you see now a days. "

I was not inferring that WMA is about friendly scuffles. And my experience with any unarmed combat is very limited. The only thing I've really seen on the subject is Codex Wallerstein, and, as I stated before, there are several shall we say "dirty" techniques of hair pulling, etc. and also "nice" techniques of arm breaking and throws etc. It was an arbitrary classification for what I was explaining at the time. Once again, just a premise, and not trying to say they were gentlemanly during combat.