Unsheathing the longsword

[CalebChow]

Before one can wield a sword, one must obviously first draw it. The many techniques of the masters of old come to waste if one can't even unsheathe the sword.

The Japanese created an entire art based on the draw, so I find it interesting how the draw seems less represented in WMA sources as both cultures certainly would have faced situations where their swords were needed in unexpected situations.

So, a question on the subject, and for those who know my posting style there will likely be follow-up questions:

Are there any treatises/texts on the unsheathing (or setting oneself in a position for unsheathing) of the longsword?

[Risto Rautiainen]

There are plays in Fiore in the sword vs. dagger section where the sword is drawn from the scabbard as the dagger guy tries to attack. There the scabbard-sword combination is used to fend off the dagger. But I haven't seen any longsword vs. longsword stuff.

[I. Hartikainen]

Hi!

From memory, I can only think of Fiore's defences against the dagger for longsword, but Fiore's one-handed sword position resembles a position where the sword would be sheathed, even if it is not mentioned. Anything else for the longsword I can't remember.

Talhoffer shows an offensive sword draw with a single handed sword, in the 16th century some masters state that the the natural position where the sword is drawn from the sheath is high on the right, point forwards (with whatever name the style in question gives to the position). Quintino describes how you can carry the sword with the scabbard upwards, half drawn, and then sling it towards your opponent. I think Thibault also addresses drawing the sword if I remember correctly, and for something earlier I remember Tom Leoni quoting Pietro Monte as describing an action of drawing the sword.

There probably is more, but this is what I remembered straight. In most cases it depends on the context, as usual. Most of the texts describe techniques for a duel, and in a duel the swords would be drawn to start with, and a longsword isn't generally designed for a quick draw, if you were in any suspicion that you might need it, and you were not able to carry it unsheathed, my advice would've been to detatch the sheath from the belt, as shown in Fiore.

I hope this helps!


Yours,
Ilkka

[Sal Bertucci]

If I remember correctly, Ringeck advises to pul the sheath in the opposite dirrection as you free the sword, so that it will come free more quickly.

I also remember reading, I think in the forum, that another possible explanation is the use of the dagger. If you think of the steriotypical (don't pound on me for using this example b/c I not all that familiar with ALL aspects of oriental clothing, armor, etc.) samurai. Both the katana, and the wakasashi (?) are on the same side of the body. (Admittedly I don't know where they kept the tanto) Since your two main weapons were on the same side it makes sense to practice that to the point of specialization.

As far as I understand, the dagger was the secondary weapon in Europe, and was usually worn on the right hip where it would be easily accessable, and much faster to draw due to it's shorter length. So if you were jumped and could draw your sword, assuming you had time to draw anything, you'd pull the dagger. The dagger techniques are highly effective in such a situation.

Alright, if I'm wrong about something please correct me.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi!

From memory, I can only think of Fiore's defences against the dagger for longsword, but Fiore's one-handed sword position resembles a position where the sword would be sheathed, even if it is not mentioned. Anything else for the longsword I can't remember.

Talhoffer shows an offensive sword draw with a single handed sword, in the 16th century some masters state that the the natural position where the sword is drawn from the sheath is high on the right, point forwards (with whatever name the style in question gives to the position). Quintino describes how you can carry the sword with the scabbard upwards, half drawn, and then sling it towards your opponent. I think Thibault also addresses drawing the sword if I remember correctly, and for something earlier I remember Tom Leoni quoting Pietro Monte as describing an action of drawing the sword.

There probably is more, but this is what I remembered straight. In most cases it depends on the context, as usual. Most of the texts describe techniques for a duel, and in a duel the swords would be drawn to start with, and a longsword isn't generally designed for a quick draw, if you were in any suspicion that you might need it, and you were not able to carry it unsheathed, my advice would've been to detatch the sheath from the belt, as shown in Fiore.

I hope this helps!


Yours,
Ilkka

Fiore (Getty version) does give defenses if you should be attacked by a knife while sitting down. That suggests to me that surprise attacks were considered.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

(Admittedly I don't know where they kept the tanto)

If I remember correctly the tanto was sheathed at the belt, hidden inside the vest at the left side in civil attire. I think it's likely it was used for self-defence just as much as in Europe, especially given that etiquette may have required larger weapons to be left at the entrance...

I sometimes wonder if the modern focus on iaijutsu is because of the significance of the application, or just because it's a whole lot more difficult to do than drawing a tanto, thus more interesting for the mastery of your own body and mind

As said the details of the draw are only important in immediate, civil self-defence situation, whith weapons you can wear through the day. Maybe this is why not much is left in this regard with longswords. If anything it would make a lot more sense to see such techniques with messer for example.

Even Thibault, who describes in very fine details how to draw the weapon, does not describe a draw like what happens in iaijutsu, i.e. cutting or otherwise attacking right at the same time. He is still drawing the weapon while out of distance, or even while getting out of distance. The application he describes is that you are discussing a matter with several persons, and the discussion degenerates to the point that swords need to be drawn. He advises doing that while stepping away, to prevent the opponent from grabbing the arm, the guard or the body. And then, you start fighting proper...

The Japanese would rather cut everyone without stepping back but I'm not too sure which way is actually the safest or most efficient

[Stacy Clifford]

I have noticed that when drawing curved swords out of a scabbard your arm naturally moves into a cutting arc while the blade is clearing, letting you put your shoulder and elbow into it. With straight blades you can't start a swing until the tip clears if you're drawing from the hip, leaving you with a wrist-flick blow at best, so it makes more sense to pull it up to a thrusting position off the draw where you have a more potent threat. If the scabbard is in your hand where you can pull in opposite directions then you can get a bit more cutting action on the draw. I can see where there might be more art to practice in cutting while drawing than in simply clearing the point to get to a ready position, though it still doesn't seem so difficult to me that it requires an entire field of study. Personally I think there's also a bit of Japanese cultural taste for melodrama involved, and the fact that they don't seem to treat the sword as just a tool in the same way Europeans do. Thibault's advice about stepping back to avoid being grabbed in the process sounds excellent to me, and it wouldn't surprise me if older Japanese sources from more practical times said much the same thing.

[steve hick]

Before one can wield a sword, one must obviously first draw it. The many techniques of the masters of old come to waste if one can't even unsheathe the sword.

.......
Are there any treatises/texts on the unsheathing (or setting oneself in a position for unsheathing) of the longsword?

Not strictly longsword, but Godinho (Godino) in 1599 has a section Contra Treisiones (7 chapters) (Against Treasons) that describes what to do when suddenly attacked. Some of it is about drawing, but a lot is contextual, e.g., if you have time, how to wrap your cloak around your forearm. So both more and less than you have asked. This is from Portugal. The way to play in context seems to be a hallmark of the more antique or common Iberian swordplay, shame up until just recently, there wasn't much of this in hand, or known.

Steve

[s_taillebois]

Another factor would have been cultural tradition. The longsword was generally pitch (battlefield) or a field weapon for the protection of such as the Ritter/trading caravans. But once the traders caravans came into the venue of a local lord, they were under his protection.
In many medieval towns the local lord or the town council often had constraints on the wearing and display of weapons, and there were also such limitations within aristocratic households. At those times to carry the longsword at the ready (either in hand or even perhaps at the side in a scabbard) may have been deemed offensive and may have provoked retaliation by the local authorities. So very different situation from the Samurai tradition.
And the Europeans were often quite touchy about these protocols. In one case in England some travelers were set upon for bearing their staffs in what the locals deemed as a offensive manner. And for the aristocracy, once the falcons came out, it was considered socially insulting to bear an offensive weapon (although court daggers were considered tolerable) or to even have an aggressive attitude. There were times people were executed for causing such offense, and many of the less chivalrous goings on at tourneys may have had their origin in such offenses.

[Maxime Chouinard]

There are those two illustrations from Talhoffer that clearly show a drawing technique against a pick or hammer (a technique that is applicable against a wide variety of weapons actually):

http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 163tl9.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 164nv7.jpg

Personally I think there's also a bit of Japanese cultural taste for melodrama involved, and the fact that they don't seem to treat the sword as just a tool in the same way Europeans do. Thibault's advice about stepping back to avoid being grabbed in the process sounds excellent to me, and it wouldn't surprise me if older Japanese sources from more practical times said much the same thing.

The first mention of a fencing style in the 10th century in Japan describe the occurrence as a self defense case where the first attacker was dispatched with a drawing attack. Murder was a common threat it seems and ways of dealing with this (be it for the murderer or the defender) were necessary. Katori Shinto ryu has a wide set of drawing techniques. The are done one knee down because it is to be used when infiltrating an enemy position by night, so you want to keep your sword in it's scabbard or else it will reflect light and get your whole party spotted. So no it's not melodrama, just plain reality for them . Many styles that would have originated in more "practical" times (read incessant warfare) include drawing. That said, many schools seemed to have left it out for some reason, so it wasn't a necessity for everyone.

[Stacy Clifford]

I don't doubt for a moment that there were plenty of practical reasons for being able to attack on the draw, especially when the form of the weapon makes it relatively easier to do so. I just suspect there's a little more to it than practicality alone simply because so many JSA practioners make such a show out of drawing and sheathing the blade with dramatic deliberation. I don't know of any other culture that made a whole art with its own name out of drawing the sword and putting it back, even though they all faced murder on the highways and nighttime assaults and all the other types of violence that man can conceive. The reason for that is clearly cultural, and I don't think the samurai looking macho and intimidating drawing his katana is any sillier than the Spaniard posing dramatically before killing the bull or circling you with rapier poised on high like a scorpion's tail, just another form of psychological warfare. I think Mr. Tallebois' point about the effect of cultural norms, taboos and protocols about allowed usage of weapons probably plays a large part in this difference of style. I didn't mean to sound condescending, just a wink and a nod to a warrior's display of pride.

That said, if Thibault was worried about being caught in the act of drawing the sword and offered advice to avoid it, then surely the Japanese must have had similar concerns and methods to deal with it unless there were cultural taboos against things like tackling a guy before his weapon is drawn.

[I. Hartikainen]

Jaron,

Fiore (Getty version) does give defenses if you should be attacked by a knife while sitting down. That suggests to me that surprise attacks were considered.

Yes, they are covered. Did I say otherwise? With the longsword you also have the colpo villano, and the people who have bad intensions and don't know the art. In each case the master has the sword already drawn.

- Ilkka

[Sal Bertucci]

I don't think he was arguing with you Ilkka, I think he was actually supporting your quote.

[Benjamin Smith]

George Silver advised that if when one was approaching a dueling field to draw one's weapon in advance. I suspect that he may have advised his students to do so in any situation in which there was likely to be a fight. Besides this we known that quick draws are shown and practiced mid-fight with the dagger. I know that even though I've never trained a great deal at it I can draw a sword quite fast and put the weapon into a thrust from ochs or a krumphau or zwerchau very quickly.

The plate in Talhoffer which you can find in the "Fight Earnestly" file in the Historical Manuals section under Talhoffer, seems to be followed with a plate showing a descending false edge blow that seems to be striking across the body's stance from left to right to end the fight, which may indicate that the fight went on for a blow or two between the draw and the end.

[Jaron Bernstein]

I don't think he was arguing with you Ilkka, I think he was actually supporting your quote.

Exactly.