Question about wrestling basics

Stephen Zeringue · Post by **Stephen Zeringue** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:34 am

what is the stance and footwork of ringen ? I dont see it or hear it mentioned anywhere.

Stacy Clifford · Post by **Stacy Clifford** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:50 am

Pretty much the same as the stances and footwork for every other kind of fighting in the manuals. Fiore does an especially good job of showing this. It's a beautiful thing.

Tyrone Artur Budzin · Post by **Tyrone Artur Budzin** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:36 pm

Why is Fiores unarmed combat system considered to be Ringen? Wasn't he an Italian fight master?

Sal Bertucci · Post by **Sal Bertucci** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:09 pm

While Fiore is technically called abazare(sp?) Wrestling is wrestling. People who learn German names first will refer to it as such. 6 in one, half-dozen in the other.

Tyrone Artur Budzin · Post by **Tyrone Artur Budzin** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:35 pm

I've researched a bit into Fiore and found he was a student of both Italian and German masters. His works on abrazare (ringen) and daga (dolch) are very similar to their counterpart German systems.

This could mean his unarmed combat plays were heavily infuenced by Ringen techniques.

Randall Pleasant · Post by **Randall Pleasant** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:01 pm

Tyrone Artur Budzin wrote:I've researched a bit into Fiore and found he was a student of both Italian and German masters. His works on abrazare (ringen) and daga (dolch) are very similar to their counterpart German systems.

This could mean his unarmed combat plays were heavily infuenced by Ringen techniques.

On a general level we can clearly say that they are the same. That is why in ARMA we say we study Renaissance Martial Arts (RMA) rather than Italian or German martial arts.

Stacy Clifford · Post by **Stacy Clifford** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:06 pm

Exactly. It seems pretty clear from the comments of various masters that they were cross-pollinating each other all over the continent. Europe had a strong mercenary culture that allowed fighting men to go wherever the wars and the money were, so having units and instructors from other countries in your army wasn't uncommon. Various alliances due to religion, royal blood ties and shared ambitions probably contributed a lot also.

Tyrone Artur Budzin · Post by **Tyrone Artur Budzin** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:07 pm

I apologize if my statements are a bit biased to the German tradition. The distinction between both Ringen and Abrazare, which I'm pointing to, is like the difference between Karate and Kung-fu. Both might have many similarities but come from different cultural backgrounds.

Stacy, if what you say is true then geography might have played a big factor in development of these fighting techniques. Travel was probably the most common leisure for those able to afford it during the Medieval and Renaissance periods. Receiving instruction from different places might be why the styles of combat are almost identical to one another.

This line of thought should have its own thread I think.

Stephen Zeringue · Post by **Stephen Zeringue** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:05 pm

what martial art that is widely available most like ringen?

Ryan Marcin · Post by **Ryan Marcin** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:28 pm

Stephen Zeringue wrote:what martial art that is widely available most like ringen?

Various forms of military combatives are probably closest, especially the more grappling oriented ones.

Similar objectives (capture or kill in a high threat engagement), similar situations (armored* opponents potentially carrying edged weapons) and similar solutions (hip throws, arm locks, etc).

Don't know about dojos or training facilities (besides joining up), but the US Army manual and others are available for free online, officially and above-board.

* While modern soldiers aren't wearing plate harness, a modern kevlar helmet and body armor lessens the effectiveness of lots of punches just as well.