Counter-cutting Drill - Video - Comments?

Eric White · Post by **Eric White** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 pm

I'm posting a quick 1min video of a counter cutting drill I worked out with my training partner Peter. We attempted to compile a (very) little of Ringeck and also the great advice and help everyone offered in my post "Parrying Attacks to the Hips/Waistline."

Any and all comments are appreciated. I simply would like to know if we are counter-cutting correctly. Mind you this is a drill, not freeplay.

(7.7MB, .wmv file; 53 sec.)
http://www.blogsandbooks.net/sword/countercut.wmv

Andrew Weems · Post by **Andrew Weems** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:48 am

While the term "counter-cut" can mean different things depending on who's using it, it most often refers to the concept of Versetzen (translating to "displacing" or "breaking"). The sources teach that when an enemy cuts at you, the most desirable response is to cut back at them Indes (very roughly meaning at the same time, or "just as") in such a way that the path of your cut both intercepts their strike ("breaking" or "displacing" it) and strikes at them. This will effectively attack and defend simultaneously.

What is shown in your video more closely models the concepts of voiding (dodging), and attacking in the Nach ("after"). Voiding combines timing, range, and agility to move your body out of the path of an incoming attack, while attacking in Nach describes striking after his strike (in this case, taking advantage of an opening or opportunity his strike has created). While this void/nach combination has some use, it is a risky endeavor that relies more on your natural abilities than your martial prowess. It works when you are faster/smarter/luckier than you opponent - a dynamic that is fleeting enough to have motivated the creation of these arts in the first place.

This video shows John successfully displacing Aaron's Zornhau ("Strike of Wrath" - a powerful, descending diagonal cut) with Oberhau (any descending or overhand cut - a Zornhau would be a kind of Oberhau). You should take note of the energy they put into their movements (this energy is what we mean when we say intent), as it is required to both correctly execute techniques and fight effectively.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Swo ... h3V_bM6nSs

While not every displacement will successfully strike your opponent as shown here, they will stop his attack in a way that directly threatens his body. This not only helps you to maintain your aggressive momentum, but also safeguards against feints and many other techniques that take advantage of you temporarily not being a threat.

Let me also say, I know it can be frustrating when you first begin studying these arts, but hang in there and things will begin to make sense. In time the vocabulary and concepts will start to click and the manuals will open themselves to you. Unfortunately, understanding the language and meaning of the manuals comes primarily from reading the manuals, creating a sort of catch-22 situation. The only things that can overcome this are tenacity and instruction - you seem to have the former, hopefully we can help you with the latter.

Andrew Weems
ARMA Austin

Eric White · Post by **Eric White** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:21 am

Andrew Weems wrote:Let me also say, I know it can be frustrating when you first begin studying these arts, but hang in there and things will begin to make sense. In time the vocabulary and concepts will start to click and the manuals will open themselves to you. Unfortunately, understanding the language and meaning of the manuals comes primarily from reading the manuals, creating a sort of catch-22 situation. The only things that can overcome this are tenacity and instruction - you seem to have the former, hopefully we can help you with the latter.

Mr. Weems,
Thank you for your extremely clear response. Ringeck says that "if you have to displace him, make the displacement ‘simultaneously' (Indes)..." I was interpreting that to mean that you don't HAVE to displace your opponent's blade. If you're not displacing it then, you must be striking to an open target. This, according to your post, is not counter-cutting.

Your point makes complete sense, but I want to be clear here. A counter-cut then means any cut you make against your opponent's attack, "Indes," where your blade displaces your opponent's blade. Therefore a counter-cut always touches your opponent's blade. What I was drilling is considered striking in the "nach," or after. If what I have said is correct then I feel I'm much more clear on counter-cutting. Thank you!

Also, as I have trained in Isshinryu Karate for the past 15 years, I feel that I now want to focus my martial arts efforts on a martial art that's tied to my own cultural heritage (German, English, Scottish). I've been dappling with techniques from John C.'s Medieval Swordsmanship since 1999 but am now taking a serious step and commitment to RMA. I applied to ARMA a few weeks ago and I'm sitting on my hands with great apprehension. However, if I'm not accepted, that'll only convince me to train harder and to then, humbly, resubmit my application at a later time. Thanks again for your generous help. I've noticed that ARMA members do not view themselves as an exclusive community and I'm very grateful for this inclusive mindset.

Peter Giannini · Post by **Peter Giannini** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:54 am

I am also grateful for your response. That response does seem to help clear up counter cutting. Eric and I have been having a debate over how to interpret the text, which can be very hard for two new students of this martial arts without any other instruction.

While your helpful response and the responses of others on this form do help very much to clarify any issues we have, everything can not be taught right here over the forum. Ringeck can be very hard to interpret for us, and I was wondering if there is any other websites, documents, texts, etc we could us in combination with Ringeck to help us better clarify what he is trying to say.

In looking for such, I have come across a website about the art of the german longsword. I don't know how accurate his interpretation is, but could you take a look at it and see if we could use this website to better understand what Ringeck is trying to say.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_arms_gls.html

Jonathan Newhall · Post by **Jonathan Newhall** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:47 pm

That seems fairly close to being spot on, at least in terms of basics, which I suppose should be unsurprising given the nature of the site. It offers a fairly open view, though, while some organizations focus more on different uses for swordplay (ARMA's particular view being very much on its martial content).

Peter Giannini · Post by **Peter Giannini** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:53 pm

Jonathan,

That's the impression I got out of the site. While i thought there was no way a site off of google would be actually work, this seems to be a good site to help learn the basics and get started. From what you read of the site, was there anything that was wrong about it?

Jonathan Newhall · Post by **Jonathan Newhall** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:30 pm

In terms of that page? Not really. It also has some wonderfully detailed sword reviews (for Albion and other manufacturers such as Arms and Armor et c.)

Basically it's one of the few reference pages out there that has it all more or less right, though it does occasionally differ on a few viewpoints from ARMA. Link to the reviews here.

Post by **Aaron Pynenberg** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:02 pm

Eric and Peter,

As you have already recieved some very good advice on the concept of counter cutting, I'll be brief.

First getting together and working with the material as you are doing is the very spirit of what ARMA is seeking to do. Good for you two!

Keep working at it, and asking questions. If I could offer any advice it's this. Never get "stuck" on any one idea or concept or your interpretations of such. Seems like for a long time you will think you have it and then something else will come along that will blow your mind!

Just accept that this is simply a natural and acceptable part of the process and you will both be fine. Seeing you guys working together reminds me of when I first began this study long ago.

Keep doing exactly what you are doing and you will continue to make these discoveries.

Now for the cool part to "reward" you for your efforts, I would like to send you two a DVD with some stuff on it. These clips will be a help to you I think.

I am sure that if you continue to be patient and make yourself known to us, you will find great benefit from staying focused in this Art.

I am glad you have been seeking instruction about swordsmanship in the past with asian based styles, remember however that this Art, if you are going to be serious about it, requires a huge amount of study time, so being involved in too many arts, can be a distraction. Make sense?- AP

Eric White · Post by **Eric White** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:35 pm

Aaron Pynenberg wrote:
Now for the cool part to "reward" you for your efforts, I would like to send you two a DVD with some stuff on it. These clips will be a help to you I think.

Mr. Pynenberg,
Thank you! Any material would be greatly helpful. If you wouldn't mind, shoot me an email and I'll get you my home address.

I am sure that if you continue to be patient and make yourself known to us, you will find great benefit from staying focused in this Art.

I've looked at other organizations online and I can say unequivocally that ARMA is the only organization whose core principles are exactly what I'm looking for.

remember however that this Art, if you are going to be serious about it, requires a huge amount of study time, so being involved in too many arts, can be a distraction. Make sense?- AP

Absolutely. I've severely reduced my study of Isshinryu already. I only enter the dojo about once every 2 months (this is a drastic reduction, mind you). I feel that after 15 years it's time to move onto something new.

Thanks again. Peter and I will be posting questions again soon as we pick our way through the source material.

Peter Giannini · Post by **Peter Giannini** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:56 pm

Mr. Pynenberg, I would also like to thank you, as well as everyone else in Arma for being a great help. The DVD sounds like a great idea, thank you for the offer I am sure that it would help tremendously in our efforts. Only one copy is needed, Eric and I can share.

Personally, I studied Shorin Ryu karate for a while until recently, but it wasn't the intense, serious martial art I was looking for. It was too children oriented and not what I was looking for. I plan to study swordsmanship singly as a martial art, and I know that both Eric and I are going to be putting some serious time into it.

I plan on applying to join ARMA when I can, but right now there is an age limit and I am only 16. Is there any way around this, because I feel that being a member of ARMA would open up more resources available to me and make me a member of a great community. You can send me an email if you wish to talk further about this.

Thank you again for all the help, you can expect to hear more from me in the future.

Vincent Le Chevalier · Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:22 pm

Hi Eric&Peter,

You've had plenty of sword advice already, and more qualified than I would offer

I just wanted to point out to you that leaving e-mail addresses in clear text on a forum is perhaps not the best idea; I'm sure that there are spam-bots crawling popular places such as this one for addresses... You might want to edit your messages and obfuscate them a little... Don't want to make work easy for these guys

Regards,

Post by **Aaron Pynenberg** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:44 pm

Ok guys I've got you down, I'll be sending you a private e-mail shortly, go ahead and take down your E-mails..that is a very good suggestion!- AP

Eric White · Post by **Eric White** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:58 pm

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:Hi Eric&Peter,

You've had plenty of sword advice already, and more qualified than I would offer
I just wanted to point out to you that leaving e-mail addresses in clear text on a forum is perhaps not the best idea; I'm sure that there are spam-bots crawling popular places such as this one for addresses... You might want to edit your messages and obfuscate them a little... Don't want to make work easy for these guys

Regards,

Done and done. I was too excited to worry about bots. Thanks Aaron for your quick reply.

Peter Giannini · Post by **Peter Giannini** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:08 pm

I also just took my email down, thanks for the suggestion Vincent. Aaron, thank you again for the response and the help.

Jonathan Newhall · Post by **Jonathan Newhall** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:59 am

Hey, just wondering, but where in NJ are you guys? I live there myself as does my present sparring partner (though I live near central Jersey and he's down south a bit). Maybe some collaborative stuff could happen eventually (our knowledge isn't much farther along than yours :p)