Binden

[James Wallhausen]

I was interested as to know what ARMA's approach to Binden is.

I have watched many of the videos on this site and YouTube and wonder why there has been little emphasis on Binden?

Given the emphasis that is given in the resources for "Feeling" the strength or weakness of the Bind - how can any Feeling be developed if the swords are rarely in contact?

Respectfully,

[Sal Bertucci]

Two things:

1. Some of those videos are fairly old.

2. In many casesyou only need to bind for a second or two to know which technique to use, so your actual bind time is pretty short.

[Tim Ingersoll]

The term "Feeling" seems to me to be more than simply what occures in the bind. It seems to me that this can be applied to the over all as well as the bind, given that the art of feeling is to judge the intention of your opponent through the pressure he is applying. I see this in both the bind and in the general aspects of the fights it's self.


Tim

[James Wallhausen]

Two things:

1. Some of those videos are fairly old.

2. In many casesyou only need to bind for a second or two to know which technique to use, so your actual bind time is pretty short.

Interesting. So the interpretation of Binding has changed in ARMA over time? The one's I have seen are dated 2007.

I think that Binding has been highly underplayed in the videos here on ARMA. I believe techniques such as Nachfolgen (as part of the concept of Lau fahren) can only be appreciated with the use of Binden.

The term "Feeling" seems to me to be more than simply what occures in the bind. It seems to me that this can be applied to the over all as well as the bind, given that the art of feeling is to judge the intention of your opponent through the pressure he is applying. I see this in both the bind and in the general aspects of the fights it's self.

This is interesting too - but as far as I know, there are few references to "feeling" as anything other than a kind of "tactile sense" between blades.

[Tim Ingersoll]

I agree that there is not much mention of "Feeling" aside from the tactile useage of the term. The point in which I come to the understanding of the term, and I must highlight here that this is simply my own personal view, is as follows.

Having read the translation of Hanko Dobringer's Cod.HS.3227a which is said by many to be the basis of the works of Meyer, Rigneck and others. I began to look at it closer because it is alledged to contain the complete teaching is Johannes Liechtenauer with in a 350 line teaching verse.

I had to ask how could Dobringer include all of the teachings of Liechtenauer in a poem consisting of 350 lines, then it occured to me that this verse like the Prose and Poetic Eddas, were constructed in such a way that each line of the verse might have multiple meanings (keep in mind this is but my own theory) and what is seen in one portion of the text might apply to other areas of the text. The philosophical component to the Art is evident in the inclusion by Dobringer in 22v of that" "Fuhlen" is the basic tenet of swordsmanship: that a man is always in motion and never at rest, and it is also based on Feeling (Fuhlen)".

It is from this statement that I have come to understand that feeling "Fuhlen" is more than simply what occures when one is in the bind and that it is a tactical concept as well as a tactile concept.

Again this is simply my own interpretation of the text as it is translated and I offer it up for discussion.

Tim

[Sal Bertucci]

That makes a lot of sense to me.

I haven't had a chance to work much with Doby. That's an interesting project there Tim, I wonder how many other "Overlapping line" there are?

Cool.

[James Wallhausen]

I had to ask how could Dobringer include all of the teachings of Liechtenauer in a poem consisting of 350 lines, then it occured to me that this verse like the Prose and Poetic Eddas, were constructed in such a way that each line of the verse might have multiple meanings (keep in mind this is but my own theory) and what is seen in one portion of the text might apply to other areas of the text.

You're right, since it's the earliest record of Liechtenauers zetel, its probably the closest to "his" truth. However, if an earlier recording ever appears (and others did exist), then that would most definitely be even closer.

... philosophical component to the Art is evident in the inclusion by Dobringer in 22v of that" "Fuhlen" is the basic tenet of swordsmanship: that a man is always in motion and never at rest, and it is also based on Feeling (Fuhlen)".

It is from this statement that I have come to understand that feeling "Fuhlen" is more than simply what occures when one is in the bind and that it is a tactical concept as well as a tactile concept.

This is interesting, accept the original states the point as:

Vnd das mey~t lichtnaw° mit dem worte / noch / we~ eyn° im de~ vorslag hat getan / zo sal her czu hant an vnderloz / of der selben vart den nochslag / tue~ / vnd sal vm~erm° in bewegu~ge / vnd in rüru~ge syn / vnd vm°mer ey~s noch dem and°n treibñ / ab ym das erste vele / dacz daz ander das dritte ader daz vierde treffe / vnd io iene~ nicht lasse czu ky~me slage kome~ / Wen keyn / mag grosser vorteil of fechte~ habñ / den der nach der lere / deser fünff / wörter tuet

(courtesy of Hammaborg's excellent transcription.)

Lindholm's translation seems to paraphrase rather heavily. You will note that his translation includes the word "motion" , yet at no point in this section does the term "motus" appear. It uses bewegung (granted, it can mean "motion") but the text explicitly states that "motus" is to fighting it's heart and crown - so why use two terms for the same thing? Moreover, consider how many "und"'s appear, this means the original author of the glosse was very descriptive in his explanation.

My translation, which clings to the original much closer is as follows:

And thus Lichtnawer means with the word “After”, as one who has done the Before-strike, you should contact with the hands beneath to do the same with the After-strike. And shall come-around in action and in rolling it and come-around after with other drives to meet off - one after the other - if the first misses, the other third or fourth will connect, and don’t leave one strike to come on us, which is the biggest advantage to have in fighting - and this teaching is in accordance with the five words.

There is much more besides this, as the text continues to explain how "remaining" (bleiben) is most important for "fuhlen".

My translation is soon to be published, and I offer my own side-by-side translation to anyone who is interested. PM me if interested.

Much to the text explains how - with the ability to remain at the sword - we can gain protection in fighting. This theme permeates the 3227a fechtbuch, and is nuanced throughout.

Given this evidence, I was interested as to why this appears to be ignored in ARMA's expositions.

[Randall Pleasant]

James

Binding and feeling are indeed a major part of John Clements new interpretation. The vast majority of that interpretation was released to the current ARMA membership only this past summer and has yet to be released to the public.

[Tim Ingersoll]

James,

Your translation;

"And thus Lichtnawer means with the word “After”, as one who has done the Before-strike, you should contact with the hands beneath to do the same with the After-strike. And shall come-around in action and in rolling it and come-around after with other drives to meet off - one after the other - if the first misses, the other third or fourth will connect, and don’t leave one strike to come on us, which is the biggest advantage to have in fighting - and this teaching is in accordance with the five words."

Which appears to mirror Lindholm's tranlation in 21V, though yours is more detailed than Lindholms, still leaves me with the same thought as I continue to read through 22v, that there is a tactical consideration to the idea of Fuhlen as Liechtenauer and later Rigneck and Meyer tell us that we should attack the our opponents attack rather than simply defend against it, this would become even more important as we close to grappeling where the concept of Fuhlen is not applied to the sword but to the body it's self. In this I still find myself seeing Fuhlen as meaning more than being simply applying to the bind.

I could be wrong but it seems logical to me that the term would have more than one application given the complexity of the Art.

[Andrew F Ulrich]

Well, I think I remember John saying explicitly that Fuhlen is not achieved anywhere else than when contact is made with your opponent. I'm not as well-studied as I'd like to be, but I've heard from more studius people (of course, including JC) that "seek the bind" is repeatedly stated and implied in very many places in the fechtbuchen. And as Ran said, it is certainly emphasized much more in the new ARMA curriculum (from what I saw of it this last summer). So yeah, when we say fuhlen is a large part of swordplay, I think that it would be safe to say that we also imply that Binden is as well.

And I wouldn't say that ARMA's interpretation of Binden has changed over time, but its emphasis on it certainly has. I think it's important to keep in mind that the 'new curriculum' that we talk about is really more of a rearrangement of what ARMA's already been studying (though there are a few new elements). From what I can see, much of the older freeplay videos may not reveal as much binden because it wasn't focused on as much during freeplay by a good many of the membership, but every member has been introduced to training in binden for a very long time now (as evidenced by some of our more fundamental private member material), and I think it's safe to say that binden in ARMA's freeplay, though not as prominent as recently, has certainly existed and been practiced at one time or other by many of the members throughout the years.

If you'll watch some of the more recent videos (such as "Some longsword technique practice at IDS,(Jan 2009)", and "ARMA Director John C. with Senior Free-Scholar Aaron P. display a sample series of some very basic longsword techniques. Spring 2007. " ), you'll see that the bind is certainly being used very extensively. Unfortunately, there isn't much in the way of recent freeplay in the public vids section at this point, but I'm sure they'll get there eventually (I think most of us are pretty busy with a lot of exciting member stuff right now, and of course life in general). But you can see from these videos how, as you've stated, binden can help you 'gain protection while fighting', or as I've heard it commonly among fellow ARMA guys, allows you to both attack and defend at the same time.

I don't want to say too much more about it on the public forum, as I think this thread touches on stuff close to ARMA's proprietary material (I'll play it safe and let the more senior members decide what more to reveal). But yeah, I'd agree that you're on the right track, James, and I hope someday you'd consider applying for membership and/or meeting some of us in person. I'm sure you'd find a lot that interests you, and we can always use another skilled translator.

Of course, all that being said, I can say for myself, personally, that I have a lot of work ahead of me before I would feel confident in my own fuhlen, and thus my own freeplay leaves much to be desired.

By the way, congrats on the translation, that's really cool.

[Tim Ingersoll]

This thread is quite interesting,

[James Wallhausen]

Well, I think I remember John saying explicitly that Fuhlen is not achieved anywhere else than when contact is made with your opponent.

I agree with John.

But yeah, I'd agree that you're on the right track, James, and I hope someday you'd consider applying for membership and/or meeting some of us in person. I'm sure you'd find a lot that interests you, and we can always use another skilled translator.

I can see I'm treading a little close to what is currently (rightly) guarded material. I certainly don't wish to tread on any toes, or force exposure of material which would rather be kept under wraps at this time. I simply thought that I would highlight that the "revelation" of the importance of binden is certainly not new - perhaps it is new only to ARMA's approach?

I appreciate the suggestion to apply for ARMA membership. I will certainly give this my consideration, as I have many more translations which I believe would be of interest to the ARMA community.

With respect,

[Stacy Clifford]

I simply thought that I would highlight that the "revelation" of the importance of binden is certainly not new - perhaps it is new only to ARMA's approach?

We've always known binding was important, you can't miss the quotes in the manuals that say "this is important," but we haven't always had all the pieces of the puzzle to put binding into the right context and apply it properly. That is what we see coming together now in the last couple of years. While there are new physical skills we've developed (new article coming soon), I believe much of it is a better understanding of the mental aspects of what the masters were teaching us that allows us to enter the bind much more easily and naturally than we did in the past. I can't elaborate too much, but it's akin to learning that last little tip that makes something previously awkward and forced, suddenly graceful and effortless. Make sense?