Hitler Youth's Talhoffer

[John_Clements]

This German book was produced in 1930 for boys exercise in the Hilter Youth. No kidding. Thanks to a member we now have a full copy and are translating it for insights into knowledge of the longsword, back then and earlier.

JC

[Guest]

Ironically, in the post you state it is directly from Talhoffer, the panel refers to "Meyersches Fechtbuch, um 1600", i.e. Meyer's Fechtbuch, around 1600, so it seems to be at least partially based, I guess, on Joachim Meyer's Kunst des Fechtens as well.

The complete translation, is, roughly (more preserving the sense than being literal, I couldn't read one word)

Grappling: Also a masterpiece
If someone is slow in the attack and wants to strike "vom Tag", be swift and drop your sword, and grab him by the knees, lift him and press your head against him, to throw him on his back. That is a good "Stuck" for a strong and swift man.
(Meyersches Fechtbuch, um 1600)

[John_Clements]

Yes, based on Meyer, butthe plates are closely taken from Talhoffer.

[David Kite]

Grappling: Also a masterpiece
If someone is slow in the attack and wants to strike "vom Tag", be swift and drop your sword, and grab him by the knees, lift him and press your head against him, to throw him on his back. That is a good "Stuck" for a strong and swift man.
(Meyersches Fechtbuch, um 1600)

You know, this is exactly what is depicted in the recent publication of the Codex Wallerstein plate 41(most of you probably already do)! But actually, though I haven't had time to do much work in the codex yet (it just arrived yesterday) I think Meyer's description is much clearer. At least it is for me so far.

David Kite

[Jay Vail]

David, you’re quite right. This is exactly what plate 41 of the Codex seems to depict. Personally I cannot imagine being so rash as to counterattack in this way. But the ancient masters show it, so it must be possible. While I am left pondering much of the sword stuff, I am absolutely convinced of the Truth of kampfringen depicted in the fechtbuchen.

[Guest]

Well, as it says, it is a Stuck for a strong, swift man, and I guess one could insert a 'very' before each of them. Note though, that it also refers to that in combination with a relatively slow adversary who takes his time preparing the attack. So there are plenty of Ifs for this maneuver to be feasible.

[noah gross]

it's great to finaly start getting some info about the text of this little booklet.
ive been wondering about it for the past four years.
i just got back yesterday from interviewing the man who found the book in jerusalm university library back in 1940.
he is 84 years old and still healthy and clear minded.
he found the book as part of a search to find documented systems that will corroborate his own work, a system of fighting with a sixty sentemeter long stick which he developed.

[Grant Hall]

In my usual fashion I'll raise this thread from the dead and ask...

Did this manual ever get translated? If so is it in the Member's section? Has anyone did any study into it? Has anyone tried to contact a surviving Hitler Youth to ask about it? To see if they actually trained in it? And if so who taught the guys teaching them? Did they just read it from the manuals or where the manuals used as intended by Meyer as aides to teaching the art? In other words did the Art of longsword survive in Germany until the 1940's?

Cheers!

[Shane Smith]

Well, as it says, it is a Stuck for a strong, swift man, and I guess one could insert a 'very' before each of them. Note though, that it also refers to that in combination with a relatively slow adversary who takes his time preparing the attack. So there are plenty of Ifs for this maneuver to be feasible.

Also, if I were wearing any type of armour(even a gambeson), I'd not feel too unsafe performing that technique. Even with no armour, once you're past the guys blade and coming forward, you've won the time to take him down. I could easily imagine rushing the guy under a hengen and then dropping my sword upon closing. I've done it before in fencing. It does work. I will say this though, if you've passed his sword safely once in closing, don't chance another pass to get back outside. Get on him!

[David E K Frischkorn III]

do you have more pages of the book? I would be very interested in finding this book and buying it.

[Shane Smith]

do you have more pages of the book? I would be very interested in finding this book and buying it.

Hi David,

Could you shrink that avatar a bit? Thanks.

[s_taillebois]

As noted would have to ask surviving members of the Jugend if they actually did the sparring shown in the manual. Wouldn't be entirely surprised if they actually did but in a limited manner for indoctrination, as the references to German martial traditions fit very much into the persona of the Reich. Similar exercises from the Japanese tradition were definitely being done by their compatriots in Tojo Japan.

Also ties closely to the visual propaganda of the era in Germany. In a 1938 poster Hitler is shown essentially as a Teutonic Knight-the implication being he was holding off the eastern hordes.
There were quite frequent mentions to 'knightly culture' in third Reich propaganda.
So it's very probable the youth manual was part of an overall propaganda campaign intended to provide a youth identification with the Reich and its appalling leader.

How seriously they took the manuals is another matter, although certain aspects of the 3rd Reich's military did have a tendency for medievalist recycling. So would in be possible this manual was intended more for the youth associated with those entities rather than an overall distribution to everybody in the Hitler Youth?

As an example of medievalist tendencies the German's were quite aware of the meaning of tontine daggers, although some today who collect these are not quite as aware of that meaning.

However it might be problematic to have this manual overtly distributed through arma or like organizations. It does have clear historical value, but artifacts associated with that era justifiably upset people...

[Tony Cooling]

I posted this in a different topic, but the information didn't make it to this one, so I'm crossing it over. I talked to a former member of the Hitler Youth this past week, and while there was lots of regular military training (maneuvers, shooting, etc.) the Hitler Youth didn't teach him any knife/sword fighting. He was from a small village of a few thousand people in the Black Forest and he thinks that may be why. He said "maybe they did in the big city, but not where I was from." Apparently there wasn't a standardized teaching regime across Germany because he never saw the manual in question. He did say the first picture posted by J. Clements looked like a similiar style to some other manuals he saw, but didn't elaborate.

I'm on friendly terms with the elderly gentlemen, if there's anything else needed to be asked, please pass the question on.

[s_taillebois]

Makes sense, the overall teaching of late medieval Renn. sword arts would have been counterproductive in regards to German militarization. Perhaps the manual was meant for youth the SS was intending to recruit. The SS did have a tendency for almost Wagnerian medievalist recycling.

Ironically the only instance I know of wherein medieval weapons were deliberately used in the European theater was by the British. Apparently a somewhat eccentric British officer shot some German's with a longbow. But British officers sometimes tended to eccentricity as is evident by such as flying with no legs, umbrellas on the battlefield and etc.

However in general sword arts such as arma and other organizations study is long obsolete militarily-although there may be some lingering applications for personal defense. Although there may be places such as the Philippines where some sword arts may be taught militarily due to unique conditions therein.

[Christopher Lee]

Curious to know what has happened with the hitler youth manual? Has it been translated yet, or if not, are there scans of the pages available?

C