Cold Steel plastic waster

[Jason Taylor]

So if you're worried about wasting your money, we've already wasted ours,

I love these forums.

I know, sounds bad, like we're expecting crap, huh? But it seemed like a good option to explore for its possible loaner-waster potential.

Jason

[Andrew F Ulrich]

I know, sounds bad, like we're expecting crap, huh? But it seemed like a good option to explore for its possible loaner-waster potential.

Jason

Thanks for the heads up, Jason. I'll definitely be looking forward to hearing what you have to say about them, as that $50 price tag is looking mighty attractive.

[Parker E. Brown]

Sorry, but Cold Steel's video of puncturing a car hood with a zweihander is just, well, special lol. I don't know about you, but I am still looking for the Lichtenhauer verse regarding how to take on an opponent in a vehical.

[Steven Blakely]

I realize that we have had to deal with a lot of crap over the years, but give the guy a chance. If you spend the time running it down you might miss the good. Ultimately the best trainer would be to get one of albions mistro line get som basic protective armor and use only that. expensive i know but that is the prime way to train. lets all cool our jets untill a few people have purchased them to see what we think.

[CalebSlagle]

So if you're worried about wasting your money, we've already wasted ours

That is kinda a pun really.

[Sal Bertucci]

indeed it is.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Sorry, but Cold Steel's video of puncturing a car hood with a zweihander is just, well, special lol. I don't know about you, but I am still looking for the Lichtenhauer verse regarding how to take on an opponent in a vehical

"When an opponent in a horseless carriage you find
"

Damn I just can't do it with a straight face

[Andrew F Ulrich]

Adding weight to the handle won't really fix any balance problem: you'll be able to bring the CoG back but the moment of inertia will not be right, most probably too big if you just add weight to the pommel. According to my measurements you cannot realistically have something balanced accurately like a real sword if it does not taper over the blade.

Not to say that accurate balance is necessarily the most important point for an entry-level training tool, though...

A couple noob questions for ya:
Would it help at all to maybe lay some thin, flat pieces of metal along the flat of the strong of the blade in addition to weighting the handle and/or pommel? Since it would be on the strong, I think maybe the issue of safety would be less of a concern, so it would mostly be a question of mechanics, right? Could this be done with screws without compromising the strength/safety of the structure too much?

Also, it seems balance always comes up in discussions of Cold Steel. Since I have only a little experience with really well-balanced weapons, I was just wondering what your opinions are about how important having a well-balanced training tool is as one increases in skill. I understand it feels better when swinging it, but am not yet confident enough in my knowledge to make the connection between that and how severely it might affect good form. Is there also historical/literary support to the advantages of a well-made waster? I hope this is not too far off the subject of the thread. Thanks in advance.

[Parker E. Brown]

From my experience, using a cold connection (rivet/bolt) on any portion of a sword blade is a very bad idea. Swords have to be forged of one uniform piece of steel. You cannot rivet or weld separate pieces onto a blade to build it up without completely compromising the integrity of the blade. In my opinion, make the blade right the first time.

Cold Steel swords are very durable, but they are not well-made...yes there is a difference. As is shown in their videos, Cold Steel prides itself in the high level of punishment they can deal out to their swords. Well, I can do the same thing to a crowbar, but that doesn't make it an effective weapon (this could be argued ) A Cold Steel sword looks great cutting a huge tatami mat, a telephone book, or a side of beef, but what they will not demonstrate is a flourish using combination cuts that require the user to move the blade quickly and efficiently with proper timing, range...etc. This leads me to the second question regarding the importance of training with a properly weighted and balanced weapon or waster. Your body's muscle memory will develop based upon the repeated movements you are making with it. If you are moving your body to compensate for an over-weighted or under-balanced training weapon, then you are not developing the proper muscle memory needed for the techniques covered by the original masters. It will result in bad habits that will not stand up to true martial practice.

[Andrew F Ulrich]

But weren't there accounts of people training with heavier wasters/weapons so that when they do use a lighter one, they're faster and can use it more easily? I thought I heard that somewhere, and I've tried it myself, and it certainly did seem to help me move more freely.

Also, just to make sure, are you talking about why not to add things onto steel swords is bad as maybe a close comparison to maybe why I shouldn't try to add it to their plastic waster?

[Stacy Clifford]

Right, I thought he was talking about adding metal to balance the plastic wasters as well.

As for using heavier training weapons to build muscle, Di Grassi in his section on exercise says that while some masters do recommend that, he recommends the opposite for beginners. Start with a lightweight weapon you can easily handle and learn to move correctly with proper precision and agility, then gradually increase the weight to build strength in your muscles once they are properly trained. I agree with his logic. What will you learn more from, 60 repetitions with a light weapon or 20 with a heavy one? Control first, strength second.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Would it help at all to maybe lay some thin, flat pieces of metal along the flat of the strong of the blade in addition to weighting the handle and/or pommel?

Of course it is difficult to say without knowing how their waster is balanced in the first place...
However the key problem with the wasters that I have seen and measured is that their mass is not concentrated enough, not in the right place. For example, the basic idea to turn my longsword waster into something balanced like Albion's Brescia Spadona would be to add a big concentrated lump of mass at the cross (something weighing more than the whole waster, actually). This is impractical... Adding a bar might be easier but it will also be less efficient than a point mass, so it will have to be heavier to get the same effect, and it will probably interfer with your grip.

Adding two masses, one on the pommel and one on the blade, will be even less efficient and you'll end up with a very heavy sword. The structure will be less strong because you'll have all these added masses putting additional stress on the waster's core. So overall I wouldn't hope too much in an easy modification getting the waster to "sword balance", while keeping it solid.

I do think it would be possible to design a waster that is not accurately balanced like a sword, but still reproduces enough of it that it does not affect your learning too much. I'm just beginning to think about it though, so I wouldn't expect too much if I were you

As to the importance of having training weapons as close to the originals as possible, good points have already been made. I would add that it is especially important when there is no living tradition, because we are constantly trying to see what works and what does not with a real sword, refining the technical interpretation along the way. If your training tool is not authentic, the conclusions from the test are more or less biased.

When you have a tradition teaching you the correct gestures from the start, at least you won't be modifying them to fit your training tool better. I think that's why many traditional arts have a lesser focus on the authenticity of the properties of their training implements. Having the correct tool will just bring a superior level of comfort and intuitiveness...

[Sal Bertucci]

Are these things out yet?

[Jason Taylor]

Are these things out yet?

Nope. Still....waiting......

[Sal Bertucci]

They are aware that "late spring" is almost over, right?