Cold Steel plastic waster

[Benjamin Smith]

So Cold Steel is scheduled to come out with a set of plastic wasters for European swords sometime this month. I doubt they've worked with anybody competent anywhere in designing it.

To be honest it looks like a black fence post. There seems to be no sign of tapering for balance and the fuller is almost certainly just for show. They would have done better replicating a Type XVa design (such as this: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-mercenary-xva.htm), at least that would have had the taper built in. Considering my exposure to their sword making, which seems to stress durability, rather than dynamic performance, or historical accuracy, I don't have high expectations for it.

There is one attractive thing about these that may persuade me to try one. It is half the price of the good wasters on the market, and being plastic probably won't ever break. It might be worth a shot.

Their training dagger on the other hand has much more appeal, as dagger simulators need much less in the performance department to work well.

Have a look: http://www.coldsteel.com/bokkens.html and tell me what you think.

[Jason Taylor]

So Cold Steel is scheduled to come out with a set of plastic wasters for European swords sometime this month. I doubt they've worked with anybody competent anywhere in designing it.

To be honest it looks like a black fence post. There seems to be no sign of tapering for balance and the fuller is almost certainly just for show. They would have done better replicating a Type XVa design (such as this: http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-mercenary-xva.htm), at least that would have had the taper built in. Considering my exposure to their sword making, which seems to stress durability, rather than dynamic performance, or historical accuracy, I don't have high expectations for it.

There is one attractive thing about these that may persuade me to try one. It is half the price of the good wasters on the market, and being plastic probably won't ever break. It might be worth a shot.

Their training dagger on the other hand has much more appeal, as dagger simulators need much less in the performance department to work well.

Have a look: http://www.coldsteel.com/bokkens.html and tell me what you think.

I actually think this is a great thing for the art in general. I don't know how the balance will be, but the ability to purchase an entry-level plastic waster is a huge plus. How many people haven't begun serious study of HEMA because they were turned off by a $100 + price tag on the most basic piece of equipment you need--and on top of that, they're told that that one, if it's wood, will break in a year or so anyway?

I'll probably get one to try it out. Also, I imagine a little work could fix balance problems (though not tapering ones) by adding a bit of weight to the handle. Or feedback from the community might get them to make those mods themselves.

At least this is way better than the Purpleheart one, which has a metal axe-head shape for its crossguard. This is quite a bit safer.

Jason

[Stacy Clifford]

At 44 inches they're a little on the short side, but for that price I guess you can live with some minor flaws. The daggers look really nce, but I'd like to see that point rounded off a bit more for sparring, looks like it could still poke an eye out too easily.

[Antonio Delgado]

Anyone else watch the video on the linked page? It's got them cutting all sorts of things with their wasters. I think these things may have more of an edge than desired for contact pratice.

[Greg Coffman]

Anyone else watch the video on the linked page? It's got them cutting all sorts of things with their wasters. I think these things may have more of an edge than desired for contact pratice.

They weren't really "cutting" with the boken. They were demonstrating how it stands up to destructive testing. A wooden waster should "cut" a watermelon or cardboard in the same way. In the video, they showed the edge which was just as rounded as a Hollow Earth waster (though not as blunt as an NSA waster).

[JeremyDillon]

Cold Steel Bokken: Beat the Living $#*% Out of Anything Inanimate
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking that particular company seriously. Their demo videos seem to suggest that their main goal is to put a bokken/sword/knife/whatever in your hand that will easily rend lead or chop down trees as opposed to being a functioning training tool. In the demo for the bokken, they actually used it to beat apart a cinder block. Because a bokken just ain't a bokken unless it can pulverize a variety of rocks and building materials. Sheesh. Also the suggestion that you should buy a polypropylene stick to "hide inside or outside your house" for use in self defense is just laughable. I think these people fear a ninja attack. In the demo for the bokken, they actually used it to beat apart a cinder block. Because a bokken just ain't a bokken unless it can pulverize a variety of rocks and building materials. Sheesh.

[Joel Norman]

Actually, there are at least TWO attractive points of these plastic wasters. One, they are indeed cheaper than all the other wasters I've seen out there. Two, they're black. I mean, if they had matching red plastic I think they'd be able to sell a bunch to all the people who insist on black and red socks.

I'm sure Brian Hunt's stuff is better, and has more variety, but he probably cannot mass produce and sell cheaply his wasters. Ever since With Intent came out with plastic wasters, I've wondered if someone would try to mass-produce them and sell them cheap. I'm not surprised, and will probably buy the sword and dagger, as they look like good cheap tools to hit stuff with. But I'll probably buy a lot more stuff from Brian, when I have the money to do it.

[Vincent Le Chevalier]

Also, I imagine a little work could fix balance problems (though not tapering ones) by adding a bit of weight to the handle.

Adding weight to the handle won't really fix any balance problem: you'll be able to bring the CoG back but the moment of inertia will not be right, most probably too big if you just add weight to the pommel. According to my measurements you cannot realistically have something balanced accurately like a real sword if it does not taper over the blade.

Not to say that accurate balance is necessarily the most important point for an entry-level training tool, though...

[Benjamin Smith]

I don't think there would be a way to fix the balance. I think they will remain a low quality, entry level waster. Their only real advantage is cost.

I don't think they will be terribly dangerous. A full power strike from any decent waster will do what they show their wasters doing. Control will always be the #1 safety measure in this art.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Might be a tad short, but otherwise look like great entry level wasters to me.

Then again, I have only a few months of experience and no live classes in terms of swordsmanship, so my opinion is basically worthless :p

[Michael Olsen]

Might be a tad short, but otherwise look like great entry level wasters to me.

That's what I thought, too. Taking a look at longsword wasters from the major manufacturers, a conservative average length is around 47.5 inches. The average length of steel training swords from major manufacturers is about 47.1 inches.

But taking a look at Albion's offerings, there are at least six swords in their two-handed line-up that fall short of 45" - some around 42". The Steward for example, is 43.69" long. Of course, it's also about 14oz heavier than the product in question. But to be fair, New Stirling Arms and Little Raven also cite their products weight at 2lbs. Determining balance in comparison to those products, however, requires someone to actually swing it around.

So it seems to me that it's definitely short compared to other wasters and training swords, but it's not out of spec in comparison to historical swords - or at least reproductions based on historical swords. Still it's what a particular user wants - if you are 6' 4" this probably isn't for you.

[CalebSlagle]

If not for your other valid points I really appreciate that you posted this so that I could watch that wonderful video. I really enjoyed the blend of horribly inappropriate (and awful) music clashing with pseudo traditional bokken sparing. 1:47 min made for some hard laughing.

Related to your discussion, I really don't see why there is not a 50$ option for a beginner long sword student. That is somehow a magic price point, and if it does not break then it can be replaced and handed on to another student for 25$. I mean there is nothing wrong with having a crappy waster till you get a feel for why it is crappy and save up money for something better. When I started ARMA I was told to buy a wooden dowel till I could afford a waster. I certainly would have been better off with this. Since it is only two pounds I think a little added weight on the pommel and this might be a great starter waster for newbz. But I sure wish someone would try it out and give us a first hand opinion. So long as we all assume the context of a “beginner's solution.”

[Dave Rogers]

[...]
Related to your discussion, I really don't see why there is not a 50$ option for a beginner long sword student. [...].

I was just visiting the Cold Steel site and noticed that they have pushed out the date that they'll have these until 3/31/09. If it goes like some other products I've gotten there, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't pushed out again after that. They seem to have some supply/delivery problems from time to time.

[Jason Taylor]

Grr. That's irritating.

We've got one on order here in OC, btw, so when it comes in, we'll have a full review up on it so after we get it (whenever that is). So if you're worried about wasting your money, we've already wasted ours, so you might want to wait until after we can post something to decide.

Jason

[...]
Related to your discussion, I really don't see why there is not a 50$ option for a beginner long sword student. [...].

I was just visiting the Cold Steel site and noticed that they have pushed out the date that they'll have these until 3/31/09. If it goes like some other products I've gotten there, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't pushed out again after that. They seem to have some supply/delivery problems from time to time.

[CalebSlagle]

So if you're worried about wasting your money, we've already wasted ours,

I love these forums.